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02:46:56 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
02:46:56 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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04:32:16 GameServ:
Devastator rolled 1d12: 2 <Total: 2>
04:32:18 GameServ:
Devastator rolled 1d12: 7 <Total: 7>
04:32:20 GameServ:
Devastator rolled 1d12: 8 <Total: 8>
04:34:39 GameServ:
Devastator rolled 1d2: 1 <Total: 1>
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06:04:09 syv: My elite pilot crashed her plane again
06:04:40 syv: This was after I bought her an extra-super heavy one, and then refit it to pile on a massive amount of extra armor, so she'd stop getting shot down.
06:04:43 Egan: content is no longer available
06:06:05 syv: Anyways, the extra armor worked. She sustained several hits from an AA-specialized mech.
06:06:24 Devastator: that's aircraft, though, they're pretty vulnerable.
06:06:27 Egan: what guns are for anti-air? LRMs?
06:06:27 syv: But then she flubbed some rolls and crashed because it was a long mission.
06:06:50 Devastator: autocannons and missiles, and particularly any mechs with bonus anti-air targetting.
06:06:51 syv: It had some heavy lasers, I think some ballistics, and an anti-air computer.
06:07:21 syv: What's particularly impressive is that the crash DID NOT KILL THE PLANE.
06:07:32 syv: It was so heavily armored it survived.
06:07:42 syv: And then she crashed it *again*.
06:07:49 syv: Then ejected, completely unharmed.
06:08:50 Devastator: Yeah, that can happen with flying bricks.
06:08:52 syv: This pilot has had three planes and crashed four of them
06:09:11 Devastator: should put her in space battles. ;-p
06:09:24 Devastator: no ground to crash into!
06:10:22 syv: This all being said, it's not the worst thing.
06:10:35 Egan: I was discussing highfleet a while back today
06:10:40 syv: I bought her a fourth plane, and I still won that mission so I could salvage the wreck.
06:10:56 syv: ...Importantly, including the special "aeroheat sinks", which I can refit onto the new plane.
06:10:57 Egan: with airships which are basically big piles of armor held aloft by rocket engines
06:11:10 syv: Yeah I think that's the case here
06:11:12 Egan: who needs areodynamics, more booster
06:11:28 syv: I also learned more about jump troops!
06:11:50 syv: They get, basically, +2 defense for jumping.
06:12:05 syv: And forests give +1/+2 defense on top of that.
06:12:36 syv: Other terrain types, like rubble and rocks, don't grant their own defense boosts.
06:13:32 syv: Maybe prepared positions do, and buildings grant inconsistent damage immunity... but otherwise forests + jump troops are actually kinda OP.
06:13:47 Devastator: prepared positions grant +2.
06:14:19 Devastator: any chance of woof tonight?
06:14:21 syv: So jumping into a light forest is still better than sitting in trenches
06:15:25 syv: That mission Lotus crashed in had a moonless night, giving +3 to all defenses, and was in a heavily forested valley.
06:16:04 syv: Most enemy mechs actually had to roll 13 to hit my troops if the heavy forest hexes lined up. Max roll is 12.
06:17:03 syv: So I managed to kill a force of four enemy mechs and three tanks, with only five jump infantry, and a little support from an aircraft before she crashed.
06:20:14 Egan: certainly seems better than footfantry considering that you gotta pay each of those dudes about 700 a month either way, so may as well have units that are effective in fewer numbers
06:20:58 Egan: I think it's 700 as a base and then a modifier based on their veterancy, and hitting the button to crew my platoon seemed to give me a spread of veterancies
06:21:40 Devastator: do you have to pay to maintain infantry?
06:22:38 Egan: not sure how maintaining their equipment works
06:26:36 syv: Maybe but I'm absurdly fucking rich because I sold all my mechs at the start of the game
06:26:51 syv: And a lot of my missions are "victor controls the field"
06:27:20 syv: I *have* been hemmorhaging millions on jets because LOTUS KEEPS CRASHING THEM, but I still have like 20 mil lefr
06:27:46 syv: Also every individual infantryman does need a paycheck yes
06:27:50 Egan: I tried to have myself be in debt at the start but it turned out that I still gave myself too much money :c
06:27:52 syv: Dunno about their gear over that
06:28:18 Egan: possibly because I just started with 4 mechs and decided that I wouldn't pay for them myself, because they're kinda owned by their mechwarriors
06:28:33 syv: I'm still not sure how individual troop veterancy works
06:28:36 Egan: there's an option so that when the warrior retires, they take their mech with them
06:28:42 syv: It may only use the stats of the leader.
06:28:54 syv: to-hit definifely works that way
06:29:07 syv: But the number of soldiers that hit may use all their stats
06:54:37 syv: In-universe I wonder what the people who contracted me think of my company
06:55:26 syv: They hired a mech company, who promptly sold all their mechs, and showed up with a division of infantry with air support, instead.
06:55:56 Egan: well, if you get the objectives done, does it matter?
06:55:58 syv: Then said infantry company actually does really well, completing most tasks and punching way above their weight.
06:56:08 syv: I don't always win, but typically I do.
06:56:20 syv: Though my battles are ALSO really damn bloody
06:56:48 syv: I like to imagine that the enemy mechwarriors get extremely pissed off at me
06:57:39 syv: There's no honorable mech fight like they're used to. Just hordes of infantry endlessly jumping around and plinking them... and a terrifying fighter that periodically swoops in to fuck up someone at random.
06:58:05 Egan: I think IS are more used to that, but if you fight the clans they'll be PISSED yes
06:58:16 syv: I feel like they're starting to counterpick me, though that could be pure luck. One mission had heavy density of flamer/MG mechs (I actually lost that one), and this last one had an AA mech.
06:58:35 syv: I'm working for Federated Suns and fighting the Free Worlds League
06:58:40 syv: I have no idea who those are
06:59:04 syv: IIRC I had to choose between them, and FS gave me better salvage deals.
06:59:42 Egan: basically both are just warring noble houses
06:59:51 Egan: I'm not super into the lore
07:00:24 Egan: apparently with the default starting date the world as you know it will start being invaded by clanners from the north
07:00:43 syv: I'd love to fight clanners
07:01:46 Egan: and you should be in 3035
07:02:00 syv: I get like a mission every month
07:02:03 Egan: I set mine to 3024 to be exactly 1000 years in the future :p
07:02:24 Egan: thinking maybe I would advance one day every IRL day, but I haven't >.>
07:17:47 syv: Supply cost for Jump Platoon (SRM): 80 spare parts, 240 fuel. Monthly.
07:19:11 syv: 15,450 salary for all personnel
07:19:36 syv: Salary is also based on skill level; green units cost 450, veterans cost 1200
07:19:57 Egan: hmm, maybe the cost is in administering all those people?
07:20:29 syv: ...It's not 100% consistent, either
07:20:51 syv: There's a random regular in another unit who costs 1,125
07:21:04 syv: While all his peers in the platoon are at 750
07:21:28 syv: Ahhh he has anti-mech training
07:21:39 Egan: oh yeah, anti-mech is 1.5
07:21:51 Egan: even more than being an officer, which is 1.2 >.>
07:22:17 syv: Honestly, that makes sense
07:22:27 Egan: I guess they want to be paid a lot for the pleasure of being deticated anti-terrifying-giant-robot troops
07:22:45 syv: Anti-mech is literally "I WILL CRAWL ONTO A GIANT DEATH MACHINE AND TRY TO SHOVE MY GUN INTO ITS JOINTS"
07:23:04 syv: That deserves some hazars pay
07:23:43 syv: That said, it's a bit absurd that a jump unit costs less to maintain than the salary of even the most poorly paid soldier in said unit.
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07:39:26 syv: ...Very first enemy action of this mission: their locust jumpjet flies just into range of my jump infantry... and breaks its leg on the landing.
07:40:05 syv: Immediately after, a tank blows itself up. Somehow.
07:40:18 syv: Infantry OP because they don't need to make movement checks. Mostly.
07:41:06 syv: (Ironically a not-insignificant amount of the damage I deal is just due to infantry being so damn tough mechs will kill themselves trying to kill my dudes)
07:41:58 syv: "Oh no, the 90-ton assault mech made a kick attach. It has over a 50% chance of killing one single man. Out of a hundred. Or it has like a 10% chance of fucking falling over and getting swarmed."
07:42:29 Egan: I guess that Princess isn't that smart >.>
07:43:03 Egan: their AI *might* be a bit tuned towards playing the game "normally"
07:43:16 Egan: so primarly mech vs mech with some ground vehicles thrown in
07:43:48 syv: Maybe we should do another match ;P
07:44:04 syv: My current company vs whatever you want (a lance of firestarters)
07:44:18 syv: Really that should still result in me goinf splat
07:44:26 syv: If you bring flamers, you can set woods on fire.
07:44:40 syv: If there's buildings, you can blow them up from long range.
07:45:35 syv: The AI can't do either. It consistently tries to melee buildings, which is *effective* but still results in a lot of damage being taken by them.
07:45:54 syv: And if you deprive me of woods and buildings I don't have good answers
07:46:28 Egan: what does anti-mek training do, anyways?
07:49:33 syv: It's rolled for swarm attacks.
07:49:54 syv: Not even "attacks", really; swarm is more of a status effect.
07:52:01 Egan: (I am making catgirl infantry)
07:53:03 syv: I haven't seen any stealth stuff, have no idea how it works
07:53:08 syv: Tell me about it when you do
07:53:31 syv: I will have Saki draw a pilot catgirl so I can add it to the game :X
07:54:58 Egan: oh right, one of the armors is "clothing, light/naked ;)"
07:56:39 syv: I think I figured out how infantry attack skill works
07:56:45 syv: It takes the average of all units
07:57:19 syv: I put an elite 2+ guy in charge of a platoon of 6+ greens. Game says the platoon has skill of 6+.
07:57:19 Egan: ah, thought it might be that
07:57:39 syv: And a 7+ ultragreen idiot in charge of a platoon of 3+ veterans.
07:58:11 syv: Next mission I'll try and check which type of average it is
07:58:59 Egan: there are specializations I can pick for my infantry, not sure what they do though
07:59:12 Egan: would have to read the actual rulebooks I guess
08:00:03 Egan: I can guess that trench engineers can entrench themselves, which seems VERY nice
08:01:08 Egan: you can have firefighters, huh
08:01:30 Egan: just in case your strategy REALLY revolves around the terrain not being burning?
08:01:45 Egan: ...or maybe you could have a mission *objective* be to control a fire?
08:06:07 Egan: not sure how to add my custom unit to an actual game, though v.v
08:19:15 syv: ...My jet dealt 71 damage to a mech in one round.
08:19:46 syv: Firefighting would definitely be useful in specific cases, especially if it can be a secondary thing.
08:20:02 syv: Like I said before, setting my woods on fire would hurt me.
08:21:32 syv: Hrm. I thought I saw the option befor.e
08:22:31 syv: Upper left, Markerplace -> Purchase Unit
08:22:51 Egan: so that I can fight you with catgirls
08:23:15 syv: I don't see any options, but I don't have custom units either.
08:24:31 syv: github.com/MegaMek/megamek/wiki/How-do-I-add-custom-units%3F
08:34:27 Egan: had to make a folder called customs, and then delete the unit cashe and restart the game, and I had to set the game to allow advanced units
08:35:27 Egan: oops, firefighting is unimplemented in megamek
08:36:11 Egan: you can demoolish buildings, sweep mines, and entrench though
08:38:02 syv: That would certainly be useful
08:39:10 syv: Entrenching could also be awesome depending on how long it takes
08:39:16 Egan: there was a button for it in battle as infantry...
08:43:35 syv: Deep woods are usable by mechs, shooting through them gives a defense boost, they're often next to light woods (which do both of these) and they're randomly placed which can cause issues.
08:44:21 syv: Placing entrench points which don't buff mechs as much, don't give shoot-through penalties, and can be placed in whatever pattern you like?
08:44:26 syv: Well woods ALREADY feel OP
08:46:39 Egan: entrench and then fire incin grenades into any nearby woods
09:03:20 syv: There was a pilot in this mission named Alida.
09:04:00 syv: She ejected from her mech after my jet oneshot her, and she landed in an adjacent lake, unconscious but apparently floating.
09:04:42 syv: I usually happily grab any pilots with my jump inf, but they can't land in water, so I had to wait for her to wake up. Even then, she wouldn't/couldn't leave the water.
09:05:00 syv: I killed everything else, but the mission was still active, so I had to kill her.
09:05:13 syv: Well, actually, I didn't try that first
09:05:42 syv: I tried to rescue her with the jet, flying into the same hex, but apparently you can't rescue people in the water from altitude 4.
09:05:53 syv: So I shot her with the jet instead :P
09:06:17 syv: Which gets reduced down to like 8 or something
09:07:52 syv: Mission losses: 6 KIA, 2 WIA, plus a few scratches on my jet.
09:09:21 syv: Kills: 2x Vendette med tank, 1x Pegasus Scout Hover Tank, 1x Locust LCT-1V, 1x Stinger STG-3G, 1x Wasp WSP-1A, 1x Javelin JVM-10F 'Fire Javelin'.
09:11:23 syv: That's 3x 20t mechs, 1x 30t mech.
09:12:12 Egan: have you seen the AI use any jets?
09:12:21 syv: So fair, I guess, considering I sent in a 100t plane with an entire company of special forces.
09:12:32 syv: I've hardly seen them use infantry, even
09:12:41 syv: Almost always mechs + tanks
09:14:15 syv: The game counts Alida as captured, with only 3 wounds
09:14:43 syv: Got directly shot by enough lasers to cripple a mech, but it's okay, they didn't take out her soul gem
09:14:59 syv: Normally I ransom pilots but I think I'll keep her.
09:15:15 syv: She's not bad, either. 4/4
09:24:52 Egan: bleb. I should play my campaign
09:45:45 syv: I confirmed that it's a mean average, rounding to the nearest integer.
09:46:01 syv: Can only check the "true" skill in battle, as far as I see.
09:46:37 syv: So had to set up a pair of teams with precisely balanced compositions to differentiate mode/mean/median, and check if mean rounds up/down.
09:46:57 syv: I could've seen mean rounding going up in all cases.
09:47:29 syv: It rounding means, if you really really really wanted to, you could fine tune the numbers to improve a couple platoons by 1.
09:47:57 syv: But I think it's probably simpler to cheese hiring mechanics to get tons of elites, if you really want that.
09:48:23 Egan: elites get paid more, so eh
09:50:23 syv: They still get paid dirt, really.
09:50:44 syv: Versus greens they have -4 to-hit
09:55:57 syv: Now the next question I've been wondering about...
09:56:16 syv: I realized I could put infantry in the mech lab to change their composition.
09:57:00 syv: This seems quite buggy; I can have laser rifles in my warehouse, from disbanding foot lasers or w/e, but it doesn't seem to USE those lasers.
09:57:41 syv: And I get more jump packs from disbandment than expected from troop size (got 19 from disbanding a size 18). While... seeming to need FEWER jump packs to make a new jump unit.
09:58:02 syv: But whatever, I could money it away in-universe anyway, and it would cost nothing significant.
09:58:22 Egan: I saw that I could buy individual SMGs and such and that I could hire soldiers before I found the button to "buy" an infantry squad
09:58:31 Egan: and so was confused as to how to combine them
10:00:40 syv: So, SRMs and other "support" gear is weird. You assign a primary weapon which is standard, and then you can have 0, 1, or 2 support guns per squad. A default SRM jumper squad is 3 squads of 6 (so 12 guys with ARs and 6 guys with launchers). This still prevents you from using the ARs in an attack, because infantry seemingly only get one attack regardless of weapon variety.
10:01:33 syv: Since troops don't use the ARs anyways, and the game was perfectly fine with letting me make fifteen squads of two men... I did that and assigned each squad two launchers. So 30x SRM rather than 6x.
10:02:09 syv: In-game, after observation, this seems to have roughly increased their damage output per-man by ~20% relative to a normal SRM platoon.
10:02:58 Egan: weird that you just don't use the rifles?
10:03:10 syv: Having 30 troops also gives a damage buff, because more hits means more damage.
10:03:42 Egan: also isn't it possible to make the missile launchers their primary
10:04:07 syv: Also number of troops who hit seems to be very random and at best loosely related to success degree on the attack roll.
10:04:28 syv: I can't make the default SRM a primary, no
10:04:38 syv: But there may be a different SRM which does allow that.
10:07:00 syv: The unit stat screen does show a "Damage per trooper" stat, which changes for SRM percentage.
10:08:26 syv: At 6x SRM, it's 0.537. 8x it's 0.54. 30x, 0.57.
10:08:34 syv: ...Which is a mere 6% buff.
10:09:14 Egan: might have to read the rule book to figure out what's going on there >.>
10:09:40 syv: My data is just VERY unfortunate because I don't see many shots hit before things explode.
10:10:02 syv: It's literally just troops that hit * average troop damage.
10:10:12 syv: Rounded to the nearest int.
10:10:44 syv: The low-SRM platoons just tended to hit with troop counts that made their damage round down, and the high SRM tended to get rounded up.
10:10:59 syv: It's definitely only a 6% buff.
10:11:10 syv: Despite giving the guys 500% as many launchers.
10:11:17 syv: But now I have a new question!
10:11:30 syv: I made 30x jump lasers platoons, because of course.
10:11:50 syv: They all have damage per trooper of 0.28.
10:12:14 syv: Except for one, which is 0.187.
10:12:53 syv: And which costs SIX MILLION rather than the ~1 mil of every other jump laser platoon with 30 guys.
10:13:14 syv: No explanation on their sheet, all their listed stuff is identical.
10:13:23 syv: Maybe I just discovered someone embezzling
10:14:14 syv: They were set to have 2x secondary weapons of "None".
10:15:09 syv: And somehow every unarmed trooped costed an additional half million despite not being given a gun. :P
10:15:38 syv: I guess they demanded hazard pay for being sent to punch mechs.
10:17:06 Egan: oh right, I can't check how much isk my catgirls cost in megamek, because megamek doesn't care about isk at all XD
10:17:23 syv: I checked for a primary rocket launcher. Highest damage primary you can have is Laser Rifle (Mauser 960). Second is Auto-Rifle (Modern, Generic). At 0.6 and 0.52 damage respectively.
10:17:48 syv: Automatic rifle platoons deal very slightly less damage than SRM platoons.
10:18:34 Egan: oh, sneaking suits are expensive
10:19:14 Egan: the camo/ir/ecm sneaking suit costs 28,000 c-bills
10:20:06 syv: I need to set tech levek to "advanced" to mess with inf armod.
10:20:24 syv: I can have VTOL copter infantry???
10:20:53 syv: (Making naked infantry requires them to be advanced, amazing)
10:22:00 Egan: tech level might be in practical terms more like "how complicated do you want this game to be"
10:22:19 Egan: so for basic we just don't worry about what armor they have
10:27:47 syv: Okay, so, I get so little benefit from 100% SRMs because the average troop damage DOES take the ARs into account. Just, ARs are barely weaker than SRMs.
10:29:11 syv: Basically the primary weapon is treated as having the same benefits/penalties of the secondary. :P
10:30:37 syv: Which is deeply exploitable. I could make platoons that have minimal numbers of laser secondaries, and lots of generic autorifles to nearly double damage while retaining lasers' double range and without ballistics' +2 to targeting DC.
10:30:56 syv: This would make SRMs substantially worse than lasers, heh.
10:34:06 syv: Autorifles are heavy. Only 3 jump range. Full-las platoons have 5 jump range.
10:37:04 syv: Vs the normal laser damage of 0.280
10:37:08 Egan: oh, weight affects jump range?
10:37:28 Egan: maybe I shouldn't have gave my melee catgirls those grenade launchers then
10:37:45 syv: I have to give them 2 las, otherwise they use... autorifle stats...
10:38:24 syv: Had a thought that seemed OP but was just being stupid
10:39:35 syv: 0.472 damage is the best I can do
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10:40:15 syv: Which is still a 69% (nice) buff, worth losing 2 jump range.
10:42:06 syv: And a 17% debuff relative to SRMs, at the benefit of being lasers.
10:42:54 Devastator: had a guy take sixty SRMS to the face.
10:43:31 Egan: enable advanced tech and you can get "infantry" that a motorized and lugging along ballistic missile arty
10:47:50 Devastator: fighting on a low-gravity world.
10:49:21 syv: That's only 30 damage,
dev!
10:49:39 syv: My 4k BV plane can deal over double that in a turn!
10:49:50 Devastator: no, it's 120 damage.
10:50:15 Devastator: guy got hit by about 80% of them. Enemy SRM carrier went 10-for 10 on hitting with SRM-6s.
10:50:18 syv: Infantry SRMs are... well slightly higher than 0.5 but eh
10:50:52 Devastator: trashed him good. He survived the mission, but I had to pull him back.
10:50:58 Devastator: very glad it was a low-g world.
10:51:04 syv: Apparently the infantry weapon exploit I discovered is known, and part of the Battletech rules.
10:51:19 Egan: I should run one of those in MP
10:51:36 Devastator: game put my speedy jump lance on a straight-up fight mission, and my slow lumbering fight lance on a 'breakthrough' mission.
10:51:47 Devastator: but the low gravity world lets those guys roll piloting to move much faster.
10:53:11 Devastator: That super-speed mech had issues.
10:53:18 Devastator: Locust LCT-1V (Federated Suns) must make a piloting skill check (used more MPs than at 1G possible).
10:53:19 Devastator: Needs 7 [6 (Base piloting skill) + 1 (cramped cockpit) + 0 (used more MPs than at 1G possible)], rolls 2 : fails.
10:53:21 Devastator: Locust LCT-1V (Federated Suns) takes 5 damage to Internal Structure of RL.
10:53:24 Devastator: 1 damage transfers to RT.
10:53:25 Devastator: Critical hit on RL. Roll is 8; 1 location.
10:53:27 Devastator: CRITICAL HIT on Heat Sink.
10:53:28 Devastator: Locust LCT-1V (Federated Suns) takes 1 damage to RT.
10:53:30 Devastator: Needs 7+ to destroy Searchlight, rolls 6.
10:53:33 Devastator: Locust LCT-1V (Federated Suns) takes 5 damage to Internal Structure of LL.
10:53:36 Devastator: 1 damage transfers to LT.
10:53:37 Devastator: Critical hit on LL. Roll is 7; no effect.
10:53:39 Devastator: Locust LCT-1V (Federated Suns) takes 1 damage to LT.
10:53:41 Devastator: Needs 7+ to destroy Searchlight, rolls 9.
10:53:42 Devastator: Searchlight destroyed!
10:53:54 Devastator: yes, the guy ran fast enough to literally tear both his legs off.
10:53:57 syv: Yeah, locusts tend to do that.
10:54:31 Egan: locusts are funny little guys
10:54:34 syv: That was the mech that suicided on the first round of my last mission
10:57:03 Devastator: I do want a light lance eventually. Think I'll avoid locusts.
10:57:26 Devastator: lets see, there are commandos and firestarters. Need a third and fourth light mech that isn't a bug.
11:10:17 syv: Firestarters seem to be quite bad for anything except anti-inf
11:10:34 syv: Of course if you want to match your actual guys against my actual guys that's, uh.
11:10:46 syv: Well my plane will have a priority target :P
11:11:00 syv: At this point I doubt you'd want that though
11:11:07 syv: I'm powergaming in an unfair way
11:23:41 syv: Stealth armor gives +3 defense
11:23:51 syv: But is rated "impossible" to procure for me.
11:43:33 syv has quit [Quit: Thanks, Musk. -.-]
12:11:41 Devastator: that's tech stuff unavailable at your world. And often unavailable in general. I think the default starting area is after the galaxy ripped itself apart in the succession wars and is still recovering stuff like that.
12:12:22 Devastator: also, this guy in the vindicator couldn't hit with a PPC, but just now he's gotten two consecutive PPC headshots.
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12:52:37 Devastator: (Also,
syv hasn't discovered Inferno missiles.)
12:53:30 Egan: are infernos just incidiary, or something more?
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13:18:47 Devastator: they're incendiary and anti-infantry. Instead of having their damage reduced against infantry, they do full or extra damage.
15:16:35 Devastator: a 1/2 LAM Super Elite.
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22:42:10 ChanServ changed topic of #einsteinianroulette to: MJ should read Extinction!
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