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01:22:13 Devastator: up for some valheim,
Egan?
03:05:45 Devastator: The 'see latest date' button is interesting.
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03:46:49 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
03:46:49 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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05:39:46 syv:
MJ's been playing Helldivers 2, and trying to get me to play it too.
05:40:16 syv: I'm not very interested, and looking into the game, there's a big furor about it installing an anticheat rootkit.
05:40:19 Egan: also may be a bit of a gamble to get into the server still
05:40:26 Egan: better to wait until things are more settled
05:41:12 syv: Looking into *that*, yes, it's a rootkit, which isn't uncommon for anticheat. And there's complaints that it's a rootkit which has been known to be vulnerable in the past... back in 2005. It's not really known if it's still vulnerable or if that was patched or what.
05:42:19 syv: It's also a really niche anticheat that's not used by any other large/popular games, so an exploit could easily have just not been noticed.
05:43:37 syv: More notably, to me, it's a really heavy anticheat being installed into a strictly co-op game... and it also just doesn't work. It took me twenty seconds to find a well-maintained thread describing how to bypass it fairly trivially for whatever cheat you want to use.
05:44:54 Egan: mm, probably put there by publisher demand
05:47:57 Egan: i haven't heard of any of these games!
05:48:15 syv: Helldivers 2 alone looks to have more players than all the rest combined.
05:48:40 syv: All the rest combined at their *peaks*
05:52:03 syv: I do rather agree with the boycott, even if it's not vulnerable at all. It's insane that people accept this level of anticheat being forcefully installed, given that there ARE cases of anticheats like this being exploited.
05:52:49 syv: Especially considering the concept itself is flawed. Anticheats are given root control so that they can theoretically prevent cheating from any source.
05:53:01 syv: ...But a cheater can just make root-level cheats.
05:53:45 syv: It is utterly impossible to make it impossible to cheat, only *harder* to cheat, and once it's done by one person it will be freely spreadable.
05:54:11 Egan: where there were cases of cheaters *spawning in content that hadn't officially been released yet, with the anti-cheat*
05:54:40 syv: And considering this level of anticheat opens up vulnerabilities to ransomware and keyloggers and literally anything else being installed... it is not worth it? At all? This should not be acceptable.
05:55:26 syv: It doesn't even affect only gamers either
05:55:33 Egan: I mean, there's the persistent war aspect which I can see the devs not wanting people to mess with
05:55:52 Egan: but it seems the anti-cheat isn't really stopping anyone
05:55:58 syv: Apparently Genshin Impact's anticheat was so bad ransomware could use its signature to gain access to ANY windows PC, even ones which never installed GI.
05:56:39 syv: Mihoyo literally made and published root-control malware for free
05:56:55 syv: And I'd say that's a direct consequence of anticheat being so accepted.
05:57:27 Egan: too bad, because the game part of HD2 is something I *do* want to support
05:58:10 syv: I was gonna say before that I'd just buy it for you if we start playing it
05:58:18 syv: But reading all this has me on the fence about supporting them.
05:59:35 Egan: cynically, is it worse than the EAC games we've played?
06:01:25 Egan: well, and as I said I'd prefer to wait until the servers aren't overstuffed
06:01:33 Egan: and maybe it'll be cheaper
06:02:02 syv: Mostly because EAC is much more proven.
06:03:15 syv: OTOH EAC is also a bigger target.
06:03:32 syv: I also see that as, essentially, whataboutism.
06:03:50 syv: EAC is bad because it is also a rootkit and games should not install rootkits.
06:04:18 syv: It's a "better" rootkit, and likely a "more secure" rootkit, but it is a rootkit and you should not need to install rootkits to play games.
06:04:52 syv: Also, having one possibly-vulnerable rootkit on your computer is safer than having two possibly-vulnerable rootkits on your computer.
06:05:31 syv: Exposure to one antivaxxer > exposure to a crowd of antivaxxers.
06:07:13 syv: But yeah if I buy HD2 for myself, I'll buy it for you too.
06:07:24 syv: We can huff the covid fumes together <3
06:07:48 syv: I may require you to give a negative review in exchange though
06:47:36 Devastator: anticheat in co-op games?
06:48:03 Devastator: good old Allegiance.
06:48:07 Egan: can't have those sneaky players performing too well
06:48:12 Devastator: got killed due to not having enough anticheat.
06:48:29 Egan: ...or getting stuff without doing the proper amount of grinding first
06:48:31 Devastator: someone abused the lack to create game-crashing macros, basically.
06:48:48 Devastator: in a multiplayer co-op only game with a public lobby, well..
06:49:50 Devastator: I'm happy to play it, really.
07:01:01 syv: Serverside vs clientside anticheat are very different.
07:01:25 syv: Clientside anticheats like this actually make it *easier* for hackers to do stuff like that.
07:02:10 Egan: ah, yeah the server should probably do a little bit of sanity checking in regards to what the client is saying
07:02:35 syv: Like Fromsoft's RCE problem was due to the clientside anticheat having a hole that could be exploited, because it elevated its own permissions to -allow- the clientside checks.
07:03:05 syv: If they didn't have any clientside anticheat (like DRG), the RCE wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
07:05:38 syv: Alleg sounds similar to AoTTG (again) in that its serverside had no checks and allowed clients to send anything. That's... actually very easy to solve and more or less ironclad protection if done.
07:05:49 Devastator: No, it had some checks.
07:06:15 Devastator: it just was built with some unused capabilities that people exploited to cause crashes, when combined with a different bug.
07:07:02 syv: AoTTG's popular crashes are just sending legit messages impossibly fast through a modified client.
07:07:15 syv: Like "I have now killed 1,000,000,000 titans"
07:07:46 syv: "Let me send you a message for each one containing its ID and the damage dealt"
07:08:02 Devastator: ..That is remarkably similar, then.
07:08:10 Devastator: it was 'sending voicechats that don't actually exist.'
07:09:18 syv: And then some stupid stuff like no sanity checking on the server for which clients are legitimately allowed to send host-only messages. A popular one is sending a message that updates the client list, changing everyone's names and killcounts on the scoreboard to whatever the hacker chooses.
07:09:53 syv: Ah, there are crashes which rely on sending RPCs that are just entirely invalid with bogus data.
07:09:54 Egan: all clients should be open source in order to force devs to make their server code able to account for clients sending any damn bullshit
07:10:24 syv: You can whitelist and ratelimit everything with sanity checks.
07:10:43 syv: Because there's really a very specific list of what possibly is legitimate.
07:11:06 Devastator: there were, and are, ratelimits and you can't do physics hacks and such, all that's serverside.
07:11:28 syv: That's why the vast majority of cheating in big games is stuff like wallhacks and aimbots. Clientside modificafions.
07:11:45 Devastator: Detection is also serverside.
07:12:04 syv: Most games aren't Tarkov, letting you teleport, or like... actually I don't know any games that let you arbitrarily spawn stuff for yourself but surely someone's fucked that up.
07:12:54 Devastator: but yeah, voicechats were clientside, and they wanted them to be moddable, so..
07:13:12 Devastator: they were also messy because of how integrated they are with the orders system.
07:13:22 Devastator: which is really annoying because the robust order system was a huge feature.
07:13:39 Devastator: The ship autopilot lets you pay attention to the map! ;-p
07:14:30 syv: Even then that sounds kinda poorly done
07:14:34 Devastator: (It did get fixed. Then there was a second bug, which also got fixed. Then the assholes remade the first one to get around the fix. After three rounds of that they had it locked down, but too much damage was done.)
07:14:36 Devastator: It was a mistake, yeah.
07:14:51 Devastator: they expected things like automatic kills, spinbots, aimbots, etc..
07:15:19 Devastator: voicechats were a really popular feature but they weren't in the design document. Someone came up with them during development.
07:16:53 Devastator: Consequences were just really, really bad for missing a relatively small bug.
07:17:16 Devastator: crashing games at will in a team-only long form multiplayer game, well..
07:17:33 Devastator: that's pretty damn bad.
07:18:47 Devastator: it was worse because it was never supposed to be a major project.
07:19:06 Devastator: I want to play it some more. I'll have to make the time for that.
07:19:22 Devastator: shame none of you guys caught the bug. Or maybe that's a blessing?
07:20:50 Devastator: you did catch the AoTtG bug, after all.
07:21:02 Egan: last time i tried it actually wouldn't start
07:21:34 Egan: now computer now so maybe it would work, but eh multiplayer and RTS are too stressful
07:21:43 Devastator: Yeah, stressful it is.
07:21:52 Devastator: team-based is the stressor for me. I don't want to let the guys down.
07:24:08 syv: It's basically an SP skill-based puzzle game for me
07:24:32 Devastator: I got DROD for that, personally. But yes, it's not real time, or action, like AoTtG.
07:24:44 Devastator: alleg controls should be in mech games.
07:24:53 Devastator: someone should do them in a mech game. It's the way to properly move.
07:29:50 Devastator: AoTtG is really impressive, though. Best take on spiderman movement I've seen.
07:30:33 Egan: didn't get to shoot any trash mobs
07:31:15 Devastator: (Also, heh. Alleg's take on trash mobs. YOU are the trash mob.) ;-p
07:32:28 syv: If I add guns to AoTTG will you try it again
07:33:18 Egan: no, I think I'm actually just too dumb and uncoordinated to vibe with the core movement
07:36:11 syv: It's simpler than you think!
07:36:35 syv: You're only controlling four separate kinds of movement stacked atop each other simultaneously
07:37:20 Egan: platformers usually don't work like that
07:37:26 Devastator: "You're only modelling off-map action from minimal team communication and a series of minimap icons, while paying attention to whatever you're actually doing."
07:37:51 syv: Clearly I need to mod Alleg gameplay into AoTTG
07:38:14 Devastator: That'd make for an interesting game.
07:38:42 Devastator: you'd need to add some weapons.
07:38:54 Devastator: AoTtG isn't about fighting other person-sized objects.
07:39:05 syv: If I actually start modding it again weapons will be the next thing to mod in
07:39:22 syv: I have an AK-47 model someone made for me specifically so it could be easily rebuilt in the game
07:39:41 syv: The best mode in AoTTG, bomb, is literally about exactly that
Dev.
07:39:57 Devastator: resource harvesting?
07:40:23 Devastator: technology? Map control? ;-p
07:40:26 syv: (Expeditions are strictly anime roleplayers)
07:40:43 syv: I think some expeds have made stupid map control mechanics for their RPs
07:41:04 Egan:
syv denegrating the people who want to anime roleplay in the anime tribute game
07:41:13 Devastator: Have you met those people?
07:41:46 syv: If Exped players weren't so consistently childish and rude they'd have a better reputation.
07:42:08 syv: I have not only met them I've spent years trying to peacemake some of them with each other and other communities.
07:42:45 Devastator: Everyone still pissing on the race people?
07:42:54 syv: Really, they're not all awful, but the ones who aren't awful have learned to not identify themselves as exped players.
07:43:33 syv: They'll say "I do X, and also Expeditions"
07:44:02 Egan: very funny game community
07:44:19 syv: In general over the last two years most communities have actually banded together pretty well.
07:44:40 syv: Basically exped and blade are still the divisive ones. And mostly with themselves.
07:45:27 Devastator: That's good that there has been some improvement.
07:45:29 syv: Blade is the mode about staying on the ground and fighting with swords in the flying game.
07:47:16 Egan: fighting game in spiderman
07:47:21 Egan: truly, it can be any game
07:48:16 Devastator: Is it more perverse than playing RPGs in a Starcraft 1 UMS map?
07:49:07 syv: Do the people who do that keep track of stats outside the game?
07:49:31 syv: Lemme see if I can't find a video of blade PvP
07:50:37 Devastator: No, but it's pretty far out stuff.
07:50:50 Devastator: Oh my god, they're playing Snow Crash.
07:51:14 Devastator: World of Edgelords.
07:52:14 syv: He's the most mature Blade PvPer I've met
07:52:45 syv: He also does high damage which is probably the one mode that's even more of a meme
07:53:49 Devastator: Fox only, no items, Final Destination.
07:53:58 Devastator: I think one-hit kills would be the only way to play the game, really.
08:11:19 Devastator: You can dive, and you can kick.
08:12:00 Egan: is divekick seen as a good game?
08:12:37 Devastator: Not really, but it's better than it looks.
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