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03:49:31 syv: Was gonna play Valheim with the other two.
03:49:38 syv: Buuut I forgot my laptop's power cablr.
03:52:50 Devastator: well, could do alleg practice, but I suspect that'd eat the laptop too.
03:53:07 Devastator: could natter for some time about woof.
03:55:02 Devastator: could maybe dig you up some link.
03:56:05 Devastator: hey, you past on the liongame.
03:56:08 Devastator: don't have another one ready yet.
03:57:45 Devastator: hmm, maybe I can let you finish out that situation.
03:58:42 Devastator: ..I did tell you that was the name for testgame, right,
ER?
03:59:33 Devastator: for forgetting to tell you the name of Tesgame.
04:00:55 Devastator: ..you might want to check your PM box.
04:02:38 Devastator: You were recieving the updates..
04:17:37 Devastator: well, unless
ER's kidding, there's something.
04:18:54 Devastator: I'm also really really stupid.
05:11:17 Devastator: Was it triangle, x or square to doubt?
05:11:24 Devastator: (never actually played that, only watched a LP)
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06:28:45 Devastator: square.. or square enix?
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07:34:52 syv: I want to run a PvP tactics game where you have to buy soldiers, their training, and their equipment, all from the same pool of money.
07:35:48 ER: and not have it be horribly unbalanced?
07:36:08 syv: PvP, it's inherently balanced because it's equally broken for everyone.
07:43:51 Devastator: somehow never seems to work out that way.
07:44:14 ER: yeah, one asshole brings 2000 jeeps~
07:51:46 syv: From my perspective, someone doing something that's as ludicrous and effective as that would be a success.
07:52:31 ER: I'll blow all my money on one catgirl hero unit, how's that?
09:36:17 syv: I think I've probably written like ten gun tactics system at this point.
09:36:28 syv: Seems like I work on two or three a year...
09:37:06 ER: I'm sure you'll get it eventually~
09:48:37 ER: yay, beat the first mission of this on master difficulty
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11:10:12 ER: why is it that alt-tabbing a game at the wrong moment has the potential to basically crash windows
11:16:00 syv: Do you mean *literally* crash, or do you mean "screw with the UI enough that you can't seem to do anything"?
11:24:55 ER: alright, beat the second level on master difficulty
11:25:12 ER: having a surprising amount of fun playing on max difficulty
11:25:24 ER: that's not usually what happens :p
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12:21:05 ER: this game is hard when it's hard
12:49:22 ER: three levels on master done
13:07:30 syv: Are you sure that's wise,
ER?
13:07:49 syv: Soon you'll be done with the game and will then be sad there's no more to play.
13:18:30 ER: I don't see vehicles. How am I supposed to drop giant robots on my enemies like this?
13:18:57 syv: No robots, but you could just pretend an IFV is a robot.
13:25:46 ER: no cost or weight for a pistol-compact
13:25:57 ER: so any unit may as well have it as backup
13:26:29 syv: Not suuuure about that being wise, but it's damage 3, so...
13:27:08 syv: You can suppress with it, I guess.
13:36:36 syv: I think I should make it so suppressing gets a free attack roll.
13:38:10 syv: Eh, will see what
Dev thinks. Maybe he'll come up with different exploits.
13:38:40 ER: do clumsy and nimble cancel each other out?
13:40:05 syv: Suppressors aren't exactly useful with nimble, so...
13:42:18 ER: is it not possible to add a supressor to weapons that already have clumsy?
13:42:55 syv: I was figuring it'd be possible, though that's a bit OP considering.
13:43:31 syv: I'd prolly say they're impossible to use at clumsy ranges, so they have a counter. Not much of a counter, but a counter.
13:48:47 ER: hmm, time to send two unarmored commanders in trucks armed only with pistols
13:50:07 syv: That... seems very unwise.
13:50:23 syv: Actually less practical than catgirl greatsword.
13:53:52 syv: I... am not sure whether or not that's overpowered.
13:55:36 syv: Suppose if you're going to use a vehicle, I should say more about them. I was debating whether or not the driver would be able to fire. Probably should, so you don't need two commanders just to use your mounted gun.
13:56:01 syv: I figured mounted guns also shouldn't get the move penalty.
13:56:33 syv: Also, all vehicles should get one more move than they have. APCs being equal speed to infantry defeats their purpose.
13:57:04 ER: a commander in power armor is slightly tankier than an APC :p
13:57:31 ER: both have 20 HP, the APC has 4 armor while the armor has 5
13:58:55 syv: Mm, yes. Not too bugged by that.
14:01:48 syv: Hmm. Vehicles are troublesome due to commander mechanics. Perhaps I *should* require more people to operate the guns, and give them a special exception that commanders can order their dummies to fire without firing themselves.
14:02:42 ER: I assumed that the cost included a handwaved crew who can't do anything but drive
14:03:23 syv: Nope! That'd definitely be overpowered, wouldn't even need commanders then.
14:03:36 ER: the commander isn't driving, just telling the crew where to go
14:03:56 syv: Eh, I'll think about it more another time.
14:04:06 syv: You can have your one-man sniper APC.
14:13:15 ER: yeah, otherwise can't really build an APC on 20 points
14:13:27 ER: which might be a good thing, but I wanted to try~
14:14:17 ER: mm, could do commander, one mook, launcher and two shots?
14:15:35 ER: much better than 20 undirected mooks with pistols who just sort of hope that the enemy wanders into range
14:15:37 syv: Shorter range than your sniper APC, and a little less damage, but AoE and guaranteed hits.
14:16:21 syv: Twenty pistol mooks would rip an APC to shreds, though.
14:17:16 ER: only thanks to the at least 1 damage rule
14:17:33 ER: also I would just be able to kite them
14:17:41 syv: A commander plus fifteen mooks would eaaaasily kill your sniper APC, while being nigh instantly destroyed by a launcher APC. But you'd wreck the launcher APC in two shots, while it'd need three to kill you.
14:17:58 syv: I was figuring missions would be objective oriented.
14:18:19 ER: well, 20 mooks can's do that
14:19:13 ER: commander + mooks might be able to have its units spread out seeing the APC coming?
14:19:48 syv: True, commander can order them away so a launcher doesn't oneshot them.
14:20:04 syv: Though they'd need more than pistols, else the launcher would just outrange them.
14:21:07 ER: yeah, I think a good number of dummies with cheap but non-compact weapons would be good
14:21:38 ER: pistol-assaults for big supresses, perhaps
14:32:20 syv: I'm remindee of that memey tactical meguca game I wrote up, where the only zero-cost weapon was a heavy AK that slamfired its full mag every time you used it.
14:33:05 syv: It slowed you down, but if you ran out of ammo for all other guns you'd be forced to pick one up, because a wish made it impossible for anyone to *not* be carrying a firearm.
14:33:23 syv: And that one was the default which would appear if you were unarmed.
14:33:56 ER: being muguca is inflicting suffering on everybody
14:34:52 syv: "Everyone must always have a firearm [and firearms will appear to arm anyone unarmed]" is probably my favorite awful wish.
14:35:22 syv: I want to have that in a game, and have people abuse it horribly.
14:48:43 ER: slap the gun out of someone's hands to overencumber them?
15:17:27 syv: Think I'll give Precision weapons +1 cost next iteration. Right now they're just better than assaults. +1d/r and accurate in trade for autofire which disables you next round.
15:17:39 syv: Kind've a relic of messing around with how suppression works.
15:19:33 syv: Maybe +1 weight for precise, too.
15:21:10 syv: Yeah, then pistol precise and light assault are comparable; -1 damage in trade for accurate. And at a place where -1 damage is a breakpoint.
15:21:37 ER: precise does seem often better than suppress, but that might just be me~
15:22:17 syv: Going to buff suppress, too.
15:23:23 syv: On suppression, you get to make an attack as normal. Then the penalty and autohit still apply.
15:24:21 syv: 25% hit chance with MGs, buuut you still get a disable that they have to sacrifice someone to get rid of.
15:27:45 ER: ah, good old running overwatch
15:27:52 syv: It also puts precision heavies to 5W, which can't be carried without slowdown or power armor.
15:47:39 Devastator: dunno if I'm up for it.. maybe later, okay?
15:49:53 syv: Yeah yeah, I'm not making anything more until tomorrow.
15:52:16 Devastator: although first look looks like someone with a heavy supress weapon, someoen with a medium precise weapon, and a few guys with light assault weapons. Pistols for everyone (aimed for zero weight and cost), and armour to fill out remaining points.
15:52:27 Devastator: so probably what you want me to pick. ;-p
15:53:40 Devastator: they'd all be dummies.
15:55:57 Devastator: surprisingly simple, really.
15:56:35 syv: I was trying to go for simplicity, since I always make things too complex.
15:57:08 syv: I ideally wanted it to encourage a variety of weapons, though I don't think that's _actually_ optimal. Balancing is definitely odd.
16:00:49 ER: you probably want medium supresses, not heavy ones
16:01:30 ER: a weapon that's only really useful for supressing AND can only do so every other turn ain't super great
16:02:30 syv: Heavy suppress is nice because of the long range.
16:02:55 ER: wait, can we give dummies arbitrary standing orders?
16:02:59 syv: Unlike other suppression weapons, you can't ignore it, and you can't charge it... unless it's a small force.
16:03:13 syv: Nope! You can just leave them and tell them _not_ to do certain things.
16:04:06 Devastator: mmm, missed that part.
16:04:12 Devastator: that is a fair point,
ER.
16:04:21 Devastator: not sure if it's right, but that's a fair point.
16:04:35 ER: also, guess we just wrapped up that tomb of horrors campaign
16:05:06 Devastator: anyone die to the sphere of annhiliation?
16:05:08 ER: we were down to two players, we both walked into a teleport trap which put us back at the entrance completely naked
16:05:19 ER: we tried to go back to get our stuff but it was gone
16:05:31 Devastator: I think it gets teleported somewhere else.
16:06:01 ER: my character was a wizard and losing her spellbook is kind of fucking crippling, so she made a water elemental and has it kill her to return home via Clone
16:07:13 ER: I kinda knew about the sphere of annihilation so I made sure to poke it with a stick and the measure the stick
16:08:11 Devastator: Tomb of horrors wasn't intended to play fair,
syv.
16:08:32 syv: I didn't mean ToH, I know about ToH.
16:08:43 syv: I mean summoning a monster to kill yourself so your clone wakes up at home.
16:10:04 ER: She preferred that to maybe dying in the wilderness
16:10:37 ER: and the next time she slept, no more spells
16:12:01 ER: also had the elemental carry her further away from the island in the off chance here was some kind of area soul trap or something
16:12:31 syv: That'd be a neat way to do a lich.
16:12:44 ER: would be unfortunate to die of the elements and then NOT wake up home
16:16:24 ER: oh yeah, me doing APC and
Dev doing an actual balanced squad does work out, doesn't it?
16:20:30 Devastator: I think I win due to you doing overkill damage and me bringing heavy enough weapons to hurt the APC.
16:20:37 Devastator: but it's a tactical game.
16:20:45 Devastator: so not settled immediate4ly.
16:21:04 ER: I didn't plan on fighting you
16:21:24 ER: if that's the case then yeah, I should probably reconsider~
16:21:32 syv: Oh, yeah, I already wrote up the situation you'll be in for the actual fight.
16:21:45 syv: Town occupied by NPC team built by me, you're allied with each other.
16:22:09 Devastator: PVP was right in the name.
16:22:11 syv: I think that's best for testing since nobody knows the system.
16:22:16 Devastator: and no, I didn't build that specifically for anyone. ;-p
16:23:10 syv: I think an actual PvP fight would be better with more points. 20 is really pretty limiting, since just having two action point units is half your budget.
16:23:39 ER: What's best for vehicles? Probably the weapon I have mounted, basically an antimaterial rifle
16:24:58 Devastator: vs vehicles something heavy that can suppress.
16:25:27 ER: vehicles don't really suffer from supression, though
16:25:50 Devastator: yeah, but they take auto damage.
16:25:52 syv: Suppression autohits vehicles.
16:25:53 Devastator: and it can target squares.
16:26:26 syv: Which is still worse than autohit. ;P
16:26:30 ER: so you're paying your next turn's action for no 1/6 to miss
16:26:36 syv: It's also potentially double hit.
16:26:47 ER: unless you're a medium supress, but that;s less damage
16:27:07 Devastator: 2+ isn't bad either.
16:27:13 ER: well yeah, it would be better with the rules which aren't these rules :P
16:27:34 syv: The revised rules would be... triple hit? Damn
16:28:14 syv: "Suppression automatically deals damage to them, but they take no other penalties from it."
16:28:24 ER: I thought "automatically deals damage to them" meant it doesn't stack with if they move
16:28:25 syv: Ahh, that's ambiguous, and does suggest it's only damaging once.
16:28:37 ER: effectively, vehicles are too fat to take cover in the first place
16:28:44 syv: Yeah, I intended that they'd get both penalties, though that doesn't make much sense.
16:29:23 ER: auto damage + a 2+ to hit seems good
16:29:50 ER: heavy supress has the same damage output as the heavy precision, basically, but more burst
16:30:07 syv: Suppression's annoying. My first pass, it dealt guaranteed chip damage, and wouldn't end after hitting someone. Only way to end it would be to disable the suppressor somehow yourself.
16:30:27 syv: But that's OP and has no real counterplay, so I removed the chip and made it end on the first real shot.
16:31:50 syv: I don't want to remove their inaccuracy, since that prevents moving and suppressing, and I don't want to make A1 weapons *not* have the offturn, because it's interesting and lets your opponent plan around it.
16:32:03 syv: Maybe I should make suppress weapons +1 cost instead of +2...?
16:32:25 ER: could turn it into a game where supression is ideal and the strat is in feeding ammo to your supressors, but that would be a different game
16:33:00 syv: Initially I had much more complex ammo stuff, but I realized it'd be easy to screw up updating every gun's ammo totals.
16:33:13 syv: So I switched to this system, which is pretty streamlined.
16:33:27 Devastator: also seems extinction inspired.
16:34:02 syv: No, actually. At least not that. The group shenanigans kinda are, though.
16:34:57 syv: I was working on a gunplay system somewhat inspired by Extinction a bit ago, where attacks were hit-one, hit-group, hit-all
16:35:11 syv: Suppression here is somewhat a derivation of that.
16:35:37 syv: Along with the desire to force grouping through commanders and dummies, though THAT also has other influences.
16:36:09 Devastator: and yes, hit one hit group hit all.
16:36:28 Devastator: that's half stolen from early Dragon Warriors, which worked like that. Along with a number of very early dungeon crawlers.
16:36:37 Devastator: non-roguelike dungeon crawlers.
16:39:52 Devastator: not mine, not really.
16:42:12 syv: Maybe if suppression doesn't end after you shoot someone, it's just that only the first guy to flee takes damage. Then it's forcing disadvantage, which is worthwhile. Hum.
16:42:44 ER: I assumed that was how it worked?
16:43:22 syv: Nope! You can currently suicide a dummy to remove suppression from the rest of the squad.
16:43:54 syv: ...Ehh, I like that. Don't want to remove that.
16:45:31 ER: if you supress a supression role weapon, they're disabled by double-disadvantage
16:45:35 syv: I could also balance precision by buffing hitrate. If base is 3+, then advantage means less, while disadvantage is still meaningful because you can be suppressed into uselessness.
16:45:47 ER: but a precise or assault weapon doesn't care
16:46:33 syv: That's all intentional (and is why suppress gives +1 range).
16:46:42 ER: so a MG + AR does better ing hte supression war than 2 MG
16:47:11 syv: Only thing I dislike is the precision goes down to 50/50 when suppressed, so only *somewhat* affected.
16:50:15 syv: The idea there is that ARs can start suppression changes, being able to move and suppress offensively, while MGs can lock things down mostly continually.
16:51:13 syv: Though with how beefy units are, along with random targeting, it might be bad.
17:00:04 syv: Ehhhh I'll figure it all out tomorrow.
17:57:08 syv: Yeah, I think I'll just go back to suppression having hit-all chip damage. Then it's functionally a counter to large groups, and also can't be neutered by attaching two unequipped dummies whose sole pupose is fleeing and absorbing hits. While it's countered by armoring your people, which is what precision *should* be good at dealing with.
17:58:56 ER: is chip damage reducable to 0?
18:01:51 Devastator: "I think all our runners are good"
18:01:58 syv: That would seem to defeat the purpose.
18:01:59 Devastator: (Someones screws up right there)
18:02:43 syv: The weakest units have 8 HP, so 1 HP damage isn't meaningful... mostly.
18:03:03 syv: I figure maybe half damage?
18:06:23 syv: Did he actually say "Except that one"?
18:06:51 Devastator: and it had an OOOOOOH after it.
18:47:42 ER has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
20:25:34 Devastator: Nah, it was an "Except that" not that one.
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20:34:12 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Fleshorrors dream of feline BASS
20:34:12 Topic set by syv [Tuesday 29 September 2020, 08:56:47]
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