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05:17:35 Devastator: yeah, it was Wyrd's weird order.
05:17:39 Devastator: seemed a bit of a thingy.
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06:24:32 Devastator: Irony made me a picture for extinction.
06:26:06 Devastator: It's on the forums..
06:27:16 Devastator: the question is how do you get from Mosral City to that castle, and then how do you get inside the castle.
06:28:41 Devastator: getting there isn't hard, but it's more stuff like 'do you use disguises? And as what? Do you go on the road, or do you sneak around?
06:29:45 Devastator: or maybe someone will have a good idea.
06:29:58 Devastator: sneaking around is fine, but someone might come up with something impressive.
06:56:09 Devastator: Come to think of it, I remember you playing some roguelikes.
06:56:34 MidJag: Yeah, I play some rougelikes
06:56:46 Devastator: Back when they were roguelikes, the first major split was between 'purer' roguelikes and ADOM spinoffs.
06:56:56 Devastator: ie, nethack-esque ones.
06:57:14 MidJag: I've played Stone Soup some, so I guess that's the nethackesque ones I supopose.
06:57:26 Devastator: Yeah, Stone Soup is a nethack-style one.
06:57:58 Devastator: an ADOM style one would be like ToME.
06:58:12 MidJag: ToME? I'm blanking on that acronym
06:58:40 Devastator: another one where the name got changed, was originally 'Tales of Middle Earth', and then became 'Tales of Maj'Ehl or something like that.
06:58:49 Devastator: it went full on commercial, so I don't play that one anymore.
06:58:52 Devastator: ..I have beated it, though.
06:59:38 Devastator: ADOM was, IIRC, Advanced Domains of Moria, and was build off a very crude earlier roguelike called Moria, but that was so crude it never was really remembered.
07:00:02 Devastator: although I'm sure some grognard somewhere would toast me for saying that.
07:00:21 Devastator: but in general, ADOM had things like an overworld and soft time limits.
07:01:11 MidJag: Where's nethack is all dungeon and at least sorta hard time limits :P
07:01:28 Devastator: Actually, nethack is considered to have less of a time limit than ADOM-style ones.
07:01:39 Devastator: they usually had starvation AND something on top of that.
07:02:20 MidJag: So outside of the dungeon and softimelimits any other big differences?
07:03:08 Devastator: those were the key features, really.
07:03:14 Devastator: also a tendacy towards more story.
07:03:34 MidJag: Ah, I could see that, based off what I rember of IVAN.
07:04:54 MidJag: Contrasted to most nethack likes ones I've played.
07:05:34 Devastator: Yeah. There are a number of other variations and some that stood out, such as Angband, but that was the first real split in terms of roguelike development.
07:07:52 Devastator: ahh,
dev, playing the old man.
07:09:43 Devastator: I suspect the key difference was terminal-based environments and non-terminal environments.
07:11:50 Devastator: There were certain restrictions placed upon a terminal environment, such as desiring an overall short gameplay session, and limiting the amount of data tracked per savegame.
07:12:05 Devastator: as well as the fully fixed screen sizes.
07:12:13 MidJag: I guess my question is, I'm not sure what you mean by terminal enviorment
07:12:15 Devastator: hence the nethack-style ones.
07:12:25 Devastator: I am NOT qualified to explain that one.
07:12:34 Devastator: you gotta find some old compsci guy to do that for me.
07:13:20 MidJag: Alright. So I'm guessing it's got something to do with like DOS vs not DOS?
07:13:52 Devastator: It's a lot more fundamental than that.
07:13:56 Devastator: this is stuff before dos.
07:14:10 Devastator: ok, I'll make an attempt.
07:14:17 Devastator: When you are on a terminal, you are not using a computer.
07:14:28 Devastator: You are using a computer interface.
07:14:41 Devastator: your little terminal sends packets to the actual computer, when then sends you stuff back.
07:15:03 Devastator: There might be five or ten or fifty people doing the same.
07:15:17 Devastator: so the computer goes through everyone and sends stuff back.
07:16:17 Devastator: As of such, you want, very much, to not use valuable disk space, and you want a game useable entirely through the barest minimum possible.. a set of ASCII tiles. Standard interface was a window with 80x25 characters.
07:16:43 Devastator: Which is, not coincidentally, the playfield for nethack.
07:17:03 Devastator: and why all the commands are expressed as single characters.
07:17:36 MidJag: Ah. That does make sense.
07:17:47 Devastator: so you send one thing, some processing happens, and you recieve the next 'turn' as a playfield refresh.
07:18:14 Devastator: Also why permadeath. Your user is your savefile, so you get one.
07:18:42 MidJag: Wait, is the fact that's its through terminal why it's called nethack?
07:19:04 Devastator: It's called that because it's an extension of an earlier one called hack.
07:20:55 Devastator: wiki page says because it was developed over the internet instead of by an in-person group, like most other early roguelikes.
07:26:06 Devastator: mmm, working on the next bit.
07:27:25 Devastator: yeah, the stat list and basic mechanics stuff.
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07:43:56 er: I was really hoping to get more sleep than that
07:44:11 MidJag: I can complkettly understand that feeling.
07:44:37 er: I went to bed like 5 hours ago and woke up like an hour ago
07:44:59 er: Guess I should go for another pass
07:45:56 MidJag: good luck with the sleep~
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