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00:26:03 ER: imma watch beaglerush xcom on twitch
00:27:19 Devastator: I do still need birdgame orders from you.
00:29:01 Devastator: Nope, don't have them.
00:29:09 Devastator: Not really a hurry, though.
00:29:12 Devastator: did you get your last turn?
00:30:28 ER: probably just want to go the fuck home
00:30:45 ER: but I don't feel like figuring that shit out
00:31:15 Devastator: You've already got a bit of a handle on it from your previous research.
00:31:27 Devastator: from trying to move that ninja.
00:34:45 Devastator: so.. if you want to try, you should be able to manage it.
00:34:49 syv: Make sure you bring the ninja!
00:35:00 Devastator: Although you'll want to get anything you want to bring with you ready first.
00:46:08 ER: Could I have the ninja carry physical objects with him?
00:47:57 Devastator: Maaaybe. Stuff the ninja knows well? Likely.
00:48:13 Devastator: Stuff the ninja doesn't know well? Much less likely, but not impossible.
00:48:47 ER: "here, carry this sack of magic theory books for me"
01:03:15 Devastator: Found two double shotguns on the same level.
01:03:18 Devastator: I should dual-wield.
01:03:25 Devastator:
Piecewise, is dual-wielding possible in Mook?
01:04:08 Piecewise: maybe with a penalty to hit
01:04:37 syv: How does damage work with dual wielded guns?
01:04:46 syv: Two hits, with independent damage? Or double dice, added, like foam guns?
01:05:04 syv: ...Also, how much do foam guns cost?
01:10:53 ER: time to duel wield concealed biorazers
01:12:22 Devastator: maybe only some weapons work for DW.
01:22:39 ER: if I add more limbs I can use more than two
01:22:58 syv:
ER, how will dual wielding work in FMD?
01:23:13 Devastator: He did say that the implant that lets you manipulate flesh might apply to a pallet of nutri-paste.
01:26:20 ER: you hold a weapon in one hand and another weapon in another hand and you attack with them
01:27:33 ER: actually making attacks that use both at once... possibly the realm of magic or special techniques
01:28:58 syv:
ER, just vomit up some rules on how damage is dealt and how accuracy is rolled.
01:29:38 syv: People have 4 HP normally, so how much damage does a 9mm deal? 1d4? 1D5? 1d2, and critical hits are a thing?
01:31:09 ER: mm, scale is either 1d4 pistol damage or 1d6 pistol damage. Also being shot in the head will probably Just Kill You regardless so *shrug*
01:32:40 syv: 1d6? There's virtually no upward mobility there, what's an anti-material caliber do? 10d4? Rifle? 1D10? 2D6?
01:33:07 syv: Feed me a new system, damnit
01:34:05 ER: oh, rifles might still be about 1d6 but have armor pen
01:36:37 syv: Yeah, I think I'll be writing the damage numbers, but that helps. Bullets deal solid HP damage on hit, should be pretty lethal, can be autolethal on crits.
01:36:51 Devastator: pistols do 2d4, armour adds +2 Hp to a normally 4 HP person.
01:36:54 syv: How does accuracy work? Just roll 3d6+stat, and >10 hits normally?
01:37:30 ER: honestly, still considering to-hit
01:40:21 syv: Vs dodge or vs range+cover?
01:42:00 ER: kinda like cover in WH40K RPGs, where it's basically armor that covers whatever body parts are actually behind it. Bit complex to keep track of though
01:46:55 syv: The system my CQB game was gonna use would use combined range increments/aiming levels. Every range increment is a doubling of distance/difficulty, and starts off very easy, with a low to-hit difficulty. When you hit someone, I roll for hit location on a chart for what level of aiming you did. Basic can hit anywhere, with a focus on torso, first aim level can hit upper body, second level can hit any limb, third can hit any spot, mechanically
01:47:43 ER: some of that got cut, looks like
01:48:14 ER: "third can hit any spot, mechanically 's behind cover."
01:50:15 syv: third can hit any spot, mechanically meaning all die roll maximum. Someone behind cover just forces you to aim, and if you still succeed, the different damage chart accounts for the fact that you didn't hit what
01:52:02 syv: If you roll on CQC for your shot, aiming is prevented, because all hits in CQC are counted as near misses, which roll on a different damage chart that includes a fairly decent number of misses. In that case you just have to pay attention to where it hit, if they're behind cover.
01:52:46 syv: Automatic fire has the same penalty, but can still be rolled with marksmanship.
01:53:54 syv: Which is a little silly, since theoretically you could score a bunch of hits at long range when hitting someone in the eye id the same difficulty, but my intention was that recoil would just make autofire unworkable at long range.
01:54:08 syv: Still haven't decided precisely what I'll do there, though.
02:00:51 ER: I could just say no special rules or tile map and use the latest version of my 3d6 system, but that would make
syv sad Kappa
02:02:52 syv: Eh, not very. I'd enjoy the game less, but it would have less chance to die, so that more than balances out. I wouldn't be able to adapt my own gunlist into the game due to the low differentiation potential in Tactihell's system, but I could still make a good gunlist.
02:03:15 ER: no, I mean less rules than TH
02:03:35 syv: Oh. Well that'd just be boring.
02:09:04 Piecewise:
Syv it would probably effectively work as two attacks with lowered to hit
02:09:30 Piecewise: sorry, rather erratically connected right now.
02:09:51 Piecewise: Alternatively maybe 1 to hit and then two damage rolls
02:10:13 syv: The munchkin in me is crying, but you should have only one to-hit.
02:10:18 ER: are subserviant dead commanded mentally or verbally?
02:10:33 ER: do I remote control them with my brain?
02:10:49 Piecewise:
Sy: Will remember that.
02:10:53 syv: Two attack rolls more than offsets all but the most severe penalties, especially if you consider foam guns which would suddenly become the best weapon in the game.
02:11:13 Piecewise:
ER for the necromantic instigator or the ghost gun?
02:11:34 ER: ghost gun doesn't make zombies does it?
02:11:43 Piecewise: no, it just shoots ghosts
02:12:17 Piecewise: the instigator is controlled via voice, but they're smart enough to do things after being ordered
02:12:39 ER: how are their stats determined?
02:33:22 Piecewise: They are basically copies of the creatures you animate
02:33:35 Piecewise: sometimes debuffed if they're badly mangled
02:34:02 ER: so I need to use a solider if I want a zombie with good aim?
02:37:12 syv: If Rezel buys a bunch of copies of himself, and poisons each of them, could Clem then raise the corpses to get a bunch of zombies with d12 guns, up until they die again?
02:40:32 Devastator: Dunno if they last that long.
02:40:39 Devastator: and aren't clones like 500 bucks each?
02:41:16 ER: 500 for a generic organic body
02:42:32 syv: Not bad for a 100% loyal bodyguard with d12 attack, and mild reusability.
02:43:07 ER: zombies don't need armor ;P
02:43:09 syv: And no gun either, yeah. It's still not bad.
02:43:35 ER: we can probably find enough guns from teammate corpses by that point
02:44:04 Devastator: basic rifles are 200.
02:44:17 ER: wonder if Clem will be promoted to Head Cultist. Because I don't think there are any other currently active cultists. :P
02:44:51 syv: I was under that impression myself.
02:45:03 Devastator: I hope you get some good culty stuff going on.
02:45:10 Devastator: and I leave before it turns into a revival farm.
02:45:27 syv: So... 1600 for a personal security member with above-average stats and complete loyalty.
02:46:00 syv: Rezel would need more dex, so you could give him shields, but still a good tactic.
02:46:04 ER: 1500 up front for the necromancy too
02:46:45 ER: and roll twice for each use of it, but I should have d12 in both skills before too long
02:46:59 Devastator: and still not that great odds.
02:47:12 Devastator: odds of one 1 on two d12s are pretty good.
02:47:20 Devastator: But should be workable.
02:47:24 Devastator: if not infinite and expensive.
02:47:25 syv: It's a
PW game, you don't have that much chance of death.
02:47:35 Devastator: He's been killing us at about 3 a mission.
02:49:45 ER: yeah, I'm not the best at not succumbing to general incompetancy.
02:49:54 Devastator: there will be something to stab.
02:50:11 syv: How much do foam guns cost?
02:50:17 ER: the one skull I bought should help
02:50:21 syv: They'd be even more awesome with this tactic.
02:50:37 Devastator: Didn't buy a cultist knife?
02:51:02 ER: you should make rezel super buff so that we can give his zombie clones big guns
02:51:24 ER: get some of the exosuit carbines
02:51:34 syv: Foam guns are the only weapon that can easily and reliably get above d10 damage, and they're probably cheap to boot.
02:51:36 Devastator: I'll get d10 soon enough.
02:51:47 syv: I was going to level his strength from now on, yes.
02:52:21 syv: Also, I was gunning for the autocannon, the carbine kinda sucks.
02:54:18 syv: ...Hey,
Piecewise! Would you be okay with me changing my stat levelup in MOOK? I haven't done anything since the levelup, beyond buying stuff.
02:54:32 Devastator: Yeah, the carbine isn't that great.
02:55:04 Devastator: looks like it's cheap but for guys who pump strength early.
02:55:28 Devastator: ..the ferromagnetic accelerator is strictly better and cheaper.
02:56:24 Devastator: Except the anti-armour rifle.
02:56:30 syv: It isn't. It requires you to have large enough projectiles around.
02:57:09 syv: Anti-armor rifle requires 200 per shot, and can still miss, and is a much worse initial investment than the grenade launcher.
02:57:36 Devastator: there are no grenades that ignore armour, and they can miss too.
02:58:38 syv: They can miss, but you get way more options, more powerful on a hit (which is likely at d10), they're cheaper, and a placed charge is cheaper.
02:58:52 Devastator: placed charge is cheaper.
02:59:03 Devastator: but more powerful on a hit? d10 ignoring armour is a lot of damage.
02:59:15 Devastator: It's a guaranteed kill on like any roll over a 4.
02:59:20 ER: no no, clearly the best option is starting with d12 occult
02:59:32 ER: and tossing skulls at chumps
02:59:56 Devastator: Mmm, yeah, but placed charges aren't wide angle. If it's on the ceiling or something, you're screwed.
03:00:04 Devastator: Well, I suppose not with the grenade launcher.
03:00:20 syv: Alternatively, you can get d8 AoE, or a d8 flashbang, or a d10 single target reusabls on a miss, or a d10 AoE anti robot, or a foam grenade...
03:00:47 Devastator: and don't need to reload.
03:00:52 Devastator: but 200 per shot isn't right, either.
03:00:58 syv: And more importantly, you can get *more* shots. So basic marksmanship misses matter less. Every fail doesn'r cost you 200 omni.
03:01:20 Devastator: Right, yeah, single shot.
03:01:24 syv: OMNITECH Anti-armour rifle (d8, Ignores armor. Requires Str d10. Single round.)
03:01:24 Devastator: that's gonna change if I get one.
03:01:56 Devastator: Yeah, thought it was d4 for a sec.
03:02:09 syv: Oh, you mean with the placed charge. Placed charge is remote detonation. So don't detonate it if it misses.
03:02:24 Devastator: remote detonation implies you can only blow it up next turn.
03:02:27 Devastator: That's a pretty big drawback.
03:02:47 syv: Why would it? Just say "if it hits, I press the button."
03:03:22 Devastator: I'd say 'safety feature', but this is omnicorp.
03:04:35 ER: they intentionally give you dangerous things to do so that when you mess up they can sue you for getting injured on the job
03:04:47 Devastator: You're right, though, guns are pretty much weak.
03:04:53 syv: Anyway, I'd go with the autocannon. Reliable d12, ammo costs only 150, and is d4 use so you get more shots with it. Doesn't ignore armor, but does 50% more damage, so unless something *needs* the anti-armor rifle, it'll probably work out.
03:05:06 Devastator: although giving the A-A rifle a use die would be good.
03:05:33 Devastator: and maybe the detpack advantage on damage or something else nice and unique. Probably enforce that you can only use it the next turn.
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03:06:15 syv: Melee is pretty weak as well, unless you go with dex. Dex with plasma cutter is absurd.
03:06:31 Devastator: Might be a design decision.
03:06:38 Devastator: otoh, one guy with melee can hold off a melee enemy.
03:06:44 syv: Yeah, it's the only d12 melee weapon.
03:07:32 Devastator: Talking about Mook.
03:07:41 Devastator: Occult is weak for direct damage but has lots of fun.
03:07:46 Devastator: Guns in general suck.
03:08:02 syv: Pile bunker is arguably cheaper, I suppose, but 300 per d4 isn't that bad, especially since it has no giant buy-in like the autocannon. You can get five for the price of one autocannon + first mag.
03:08:04 Devastator: Explosives are pretty much great.
03:08:39 syv: More than things being weak, the basic security rifle is just awesome.
03:09:04 Devastator: I suppose that's reasonable, then.
03:09:09 syv: Costs less than most guns, does d6 damage in all situations, lots of spare mags floating around, and it looks like a P90 to boot! What's not to love?
03:09:11 Devastator: more likely to do things and get paid more, but hard to cap.
03:09:19 Devastator: ie, you don't get much better.
03:09:40 syv: Do our mags refill, or are they completely single use?
03:10:08 Devastator: I think I was going to assume half price to refill a partly-used mag, but full price for an empty one.
03:11:09 syv: Then there'd be basically no reason to record empties on your sheet... but yeah, that's about what I'd expect.
03:11:36 syv: Also, makes d6 use die guns--like the security rifle--even better, if halfprice refills are a thing.
03:12:00 syv: Jeez, the thing is straight up better than a lot of the armory.
03:12:15 Devastator: I was just thinking half-price because you've used half the mag.
03:12:32 ER: I believe that someone asked about refilling magazines and bonerface was like "fuck off I don't wanna deal with that" but less rune than me
03:12:53 ER: despite the fact that we manage our own inventories ;P
03:14:18 midnightjaguar: But then does it cost just as much to refill a mag that has one round left versus on that has only fired a single shot?
03:14:26 syv: "Pay 33% more, you get a revolver that does less damage ~80% of the time, needs to be reloaded more often, and has more expensive ammo."
03:14:29 midnightjaguar: So like there’s a lot of granularity and such
03:14:51 syv: It's use die,
MJ. Whether you've fired one or fifty bullets, if it's d4, it has the same amount of ammo left.
03:14:56 ER: I guess you could onehand it
syv?
03:14:57 Devastator: 'but can be dual-wielded'
03:15:06 syv: It's stupid and we all hate it, but that's what big boner decided to do.
03:15:20 syv: Why wouldn't you be able to onehand the security rifle?
03:15:26 ER: I think
PW overestimates the power of exploding die
03:15:26 Devastator: the revolver you dummy.
03:16:02 syv: I know he said the revolver can be DW'd. I'm saying the security rifle can be, too, you dummy.
03:18:04 syv: Someone with d4 strength can wield it twohanded, someone with d6 or d8 should *totally* be able to onehand it, and that's not much str to ask. And that's only if Dubs decides to add a rule making things more complicated.
03:19:08 syv: It's a bullpup rifle, so it should actually have excellent balance for onehanding. Especially if its weight balance is anything like that actual P90, which it would be, because the trigger is just forward of center, same as any rifle's CoG.
03:20:17 syv: Also, that revolver is probably ridiculously heavy.
03:20:25 ER: well, those rifles are seemingly made as cheaply as humanly possible
03:20:34 ER: so the balance might be overall fucked
03:21:13 syv: Pinpoint carbine: more than double the cost, you roll damage twice if you spend your first turn not shooting, and also discard the lower result. And you get a smaller, more expensive magazine. Buy yours today!
03:21:41 Devastator: You know, Dubs is just going to make the basic rifles 500, then.
03:22:29 syv: Piledriver: You get a ~33% damage increase, if you have d10 str, and still have a smalled mag. Or you could buy three of the basic rifle, or two d8 armor shields.
03:22:47 syv: That would make sense and it would still be better than a bunch of the more expensive guns.
03:22:52 midnightjaguar: The name sounds cool though.
03:22:53 Devastator: Also, prolly going to treat dual-wielding like I do in Survivor.
03:23:29 ER: sec rifle is the epitome of Boring But Practical
03:24:01 syv: Flamesprayer: QUADRUPLE cost, deals a bonus 66% damage, except armor is applied twice, and it doesn't work against inorganics.
03:24:38 syv: (
Piecewise) Mags do not refill
03:24:43 ER: but at least the flamesprayer can exploit weaknesses to flame?
03:24:59 Devastator: Might be stuff weak to fire.
03:25:11 Devastator: or mostly immune to X.
03:25:28 ER: anything that makes you say NOPE is probably flame vulnerable :P
03:25:36 syv: So you get a specialty tool that costs as much as maintaining d12 health for four rounds, guaranteed.
03:26:16 syv: Also, it's one security rifle cheaper than the security autocannon.
03:26:36 syv: Man, security rifles and the d12 shields have the same cost.
03:27:22 Piecewise: If you see cost problems, leave a comment on the doc
03:27:34 Piecewise: Like I said, they were added quickly and I am bad at balance
03:28:04 syv: Can I comment on predicted damage/utility as well?
03:28:32 ER: yeah, part of the problem appears to be many thing being weaker than starting equipment :P
03:28:32 Piecewise: do as you like, might help balance things
03:29:13 syv: Is there any reason why so much stuff has d4 magazines?
03:29:58 Piecewise: so they run out of ammo relatively fast
03:29:58 syv: 25% chance for your mag to run out every use seems really harsh when another costs almost as much as another gun that's only slightly weaker and comes with its own full mag.
03:30:30 Devastator: it's 50%, actually.
03:30:34 Devastator: mag shrinks on 1 or 2.
03:30:40 ER: the next level up, d6, is a 16% chance that it doesn't even run out
03:30:52 syv: Also, it makes no sense, you can buy five d6 securifle mags for the cost of one autocannon mag. Or seven securifle mags for the price of one anti-armor bullet.
03:31:14 syv: D4 use is 50%? I thought it only went down on 1?
03:32:19 Piecewise: I don't honestly remember but I want to say 1 or 2. However, I do see the difficulty when it come to pricing ammo at 10%
03:32:33 Piecewise: I'll have to edit them to not be so much
03:32:47 Piecewise: and probably make d6 the standard in more stuff
03:32:50 Devastator: Just up the cost of the base rifle, and make new guns come with two free mags.
03:32:58 Devastator: but yeah, some d6s would be good too.
03:33:13 ER: might want to go through and give things ammo costs rather than 1/10
03:33:44 syv: Why is d4 1 or 2? That's a d2.
03:33:50 Devastator: I'm trying to come up with a general rule that'll mean less writing stuff down.
03:33:56 ER: anti armor rounds can't be so explensive, and I bet flmwrfer fuel isn't expensive either
03:34:10 syv: Which makes very little sense. And is very bad for me, personally, because I bought d4 armor thinking it's 75% reusable.
03:34:18 Piecewise: 1 or 2 is standard in use die, though I might have to lower it to 1
03:34:28 Devastator: eh, keep it at 1 or 2.
03:34:32 Devastator: hot reloading action.
03:34:48 ER: make a 1 reduce die size by 2
03:34:51 Devastator: the guy who is using lots of guns?
03:35:09 Piecewise: I'll be back in a few, keep pointing out issues
03:35:25 ER: not my problem my only good weapon is single use, no dies
03:35:31 syv: Ugh. If it's keeping d4 use die at 50% lowering, I want to rethink my purchases...
03:35:54 midnightjaguar: Just have all payment be in blood. Simple. Easy book keeping and everyone has the same amount :P
03:36:49 midnightjaguar: See.
ER gets it~
03:37:40 syv: If 1 or 2 on use die is standard, I hate the mechanic even more. That's completely stupid, it should just be a coinflip.
03:38:37 Devastator: because all use dies are going to be 1d4.
03:39:20 ER: yeah, having many things be 50/50 to run out of ammo every single use is probably not good balance
03:40:07 ER: he should keep it as 1-2 reducing size and let us buy extended magazines which roll 2d6
03:40:26 Devastator: I'm planning on just making extended mags.
03:48:39 midnightjaguar: Hey
dev do you want to watch some OPM in a bit?
03:51:48 Devastator: Ugh, laser rifle in Max Carnage.
03:51:56 Devastator: (It's a plasma rifle, except it hits all the time. Sweet.)
03:52:05 Devastator: (In Max Carnage, EVERYTHING hits all the time.)
03:52:34 Devastator: so.. it's a plasma rifle with -1 shots per burst.
03:53:14 midnightjaguar: That is a problem.
03:53:30 Devastator: and it's sitting next to the Grammaton Cleric Beretta, which is a pistol with a full-auto mode that does as much damage as a plasma rifle.
03:54:33 Devastator: Otoh, it's fully moddable being a pink weapon.
03:55:56 midnightjaguar: What can you do with the mods?
03:57:29 midnightjaguar: But In what way? Like firing rate, damage?
03:57:35 Devastator: depends on the kit.
03:57:39 Devastator: all of the above, really.
04:02:29 ER: so yeah
MJ, the plan me and
syv were coming up with for MOOK was having his character clone himself a bunch of times, then killing them all and raising them as zombie minions
04:02:42 Devastator: "The former human dies. The former human dies. The former human dies. The former sergeant dies. The former human dies. The former human dies. The former human dies. The former human dies. The barrel explodes! The former human dies. The former sergeant dies. The former human dies. You hear the scream of a freed soul. The former human dies. The former human dies."
04:04:01 Piecewise: I think, in considering the system as I walked, that I'll need to make some overall changes
04:04:28 Piecewise: issues with the balancing and handling of weapons are connected to the system and limitations in the current set up
04:04:47 Piecewise: I need a wider damage band in order to make upgrades meaningful and varied
04:08:27 Piecewise: I'm gonna go look at a few things
04:08:39 Piecewise: try to figure out a new way to break things
04:14:35 Devastator: Soon,
midnightjaguar.
04:15:03 midnightjaguar: Cool lemme know
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04:17:17 syv:
Piecewise, I think the easiest improvement would be to just drop the RL tabletop elements of the game.
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04:18:11 Devastator: I think that's just the one element you don't like.
04:18:28 MidJag: I do that sometimes
ER.
04:18:45 MidJag: mitosis is a hell of a thing.
04:19:00 syv: Thinking about it, I'm pretty sure use die start at d4/2 rather than d2 because that way players can physically hold their "magazines", and there's no confusion between d3 (d6/2) and d6. But that's a relic of, well, using physical dice. You're running a PbP forum game, there's little reason to not use a program.
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04:19:28 syv: This also allows you to have a larger damage band. D15 is possible, with no system changes.
04:20:18 syv:
Dev, quiet, you rely on ad hominem too much. I dislike use die, that doesn't mean they aren't flawed, and can't be improved without being gutted.
04:20:35 Devastator: I suppose that's fair enough.
04:20:44 Devastator: although you said I'm wrong because I'm
dev earlier.
04:20:51 Devastator: and your first suggestion was to gut them.
04:21:01 syv: Was that during the
ER argument?
04:21:30 Devastator: Nah, just a bit ago.
04:21:50 Devastator: '
Dev is bad advice'
04:21:56 ER:
syv, I linked yotta to the IRC logs and he's wondering why your thing says GWG
04:22:21 syv: No, I said you give bad advice, right after you made an asinine joke that could've been takrn seriously.
04:22:31 Devastator: Keeping them at 1 and 2 to reduce?
04:23:01 ER: well yeah, of course, so that's what I told yotta
04:23:47 syv: Oh, confused it with
ER's statement of 1 = double reduction.
04:24:37 syv: Still, it's bad advice. 50/50 use chance is bad. Also you do give lots of bad advice, because your game preferences aren't aligned with most people's.
04:25:13 Devastator: I don't think it could have been that bad, given we went what, two missions without it being noticed?
04:25:25 Devastator: but you're right, it 'is bad', therefore it needs to change.
04:26:28 syv: An alternative would be making mags cheaper, but I still don't think that makes for good gameplay--having to reload almost as often as you shoot isn't fun. Another fix would be to increase die sizes for weapons, on average. Still, I think it makes most sense to go with digital die that reduce on 1, because it's more intuitive.
04:26:50 Devastator: That's not much of an argument.
04:26:57 syv: And yes, reducing the die sizes by half if that change is made. -.-
04:27:09 Devastator: Going to digital dice because they're more intuitive.
04:27:17 Devastator: When the odds are exactly the same after the change.
04:28:01 syv: When a large number of your players misunderstand your rules, that's a pretty good reason to change how the rules work, if the only functional difference is cosmetic.
04:29:11 Devastator: Also, 1 and 2s are failures in RTD.
04:29:27 Devastator: So intuitively, 3's are 'ok' and 1s and 2s are 'bad.'
04:30:00 syv: And sixes are overshots, and tens are massive, massive overshots.
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04:31:16 Devastator: Wait, don't leave, we're arguing over subjective matters!
04:31:20 Devastator: and for some reason I'm just wrong.
04:31:39 Devastator: You didn't notice it eitehr.
04:33:04 Devastator: "When a large number of your players misunderstand your rules, that's a pretty good reason to change how the rules work, if the only functional difference is cosmetic."
04:33:08 syv: No, you're wrong because you hold a different opinion and don't care about what other people think. If something is intuitive to you, it's not unintuitive, and everyone else is wrong.
Paris, myself, and
ER all assumed use die to reduce on 1, while you knew it reduced on <3, and only because that's written in the OP.
04:33:49 syv: I don't know about any of the other players, but nobody commented when
Paris made the statement matching that probability, so it's safe to say it's not universally known that use die reduce on <3.
04:33:56 ER: I think it knew it was 1 or 2, but didn't think too hard about it and assumed you knew what you were talking about
04:34:05 Devastator: I told you the first time you mentioned it in front of me.
04:34:09 Devastator: I wasn't hiding it.
04:34:24 Devastator: It sounds like because you thought the rules were something different, they need to change to match your opinion.
04:35:05 Devastator: You quite rightly call me out when I pull that kind of shit.
04:35:08 syv: Therefore, it's a reasonable statement that it's more intuitive for it to reduce on 1, because a significant rate of players think that's how it works, despite nothing official suggesting that.
04:36:02 ER: counterpoint: do players really need to know what the rules are?
04:36:05 Devastator: I'd rather stick with the rules as written, unless a gameplay change is going to be made by changing them.
04:36:22 Devastator: If you do change it, it should be for some reason other than a couple of people not understanding them.
04:36:27 ER: 75% of my players in TH don't understand the rules and it still works-ish
04:37:33 syv: Yeah, players understanding rules is negative just as often as positive. They need to know their options, anything past thay is potentially negative and unlikely to be particularly positive.
04:37:48 ER: also changing the rules now will PROBABLY be painful, because every player will need to change shit
04:37:59 ER: still see unarmored people with d4 life
04:38:01 Devastator: Of course! We'll all need to rewrite more shit on our char sheets..
04:38:12 syv: THAT is a good counterargument, yeah.
04:38:46 syv: Life: (Starts d4. If its higher, list the item that makes it so. Like "Life: d6 OMNITECH Riot suit")
04:39:07 ER: because I complained to
PW that shooting someone with a 9mm should have better than even chances to actually hurt them :P
04:39:13 syv: Best counterargument:
Piecewise can't fix his own shit, expecting players to fix it is just craziness.
04:39:39 ER: hm, did he not update his OP?
04:40:14 Devastator: (Also, I want it to be as easy as possible for
PW.)
04:40:16 ER: "Two stats which aren't listed above are "Life" and "Attack", both start at d2."
04:40:22 Devastator: (Changing a few prices, easy. Forgetting stuff? Hard.)
04:41:23 syv: Check character sheet spoiler.
04:41:32 syv: He fixed it in one place, not another.
04:42:08 ER: that explains how naturegirl has d4 despite joining long after that change...
04:43:27 Devastator: Hmm, should also drop all armours one point to match.
04:45:03 Devastator: Eh, I'd rather the rules just be a bit funky but quick and functional.
04:45:07 Devastator: They're miles better than
ER.
04:45:10 ER: make armor pickup items in the world
04:45:28 syv: Still say that an easier fix than replacing the use die system would just be to increase the band on things, using die that don't exist.
04:45:40 ER: just little +1 armor bits scattered everywhere
04:46:32 syv: They're not miles better than
ER, the complexities of the rules were only relevant to the GM there, and they made for a good distribution in the last iteration. Only flaw was the uncapped nature.
04:47:30 syv: +4 was bad for the system, that's not a goblin thing.
04:49:01 syv: Otherwise the system was pretty good, IMO. Or at the very least it fits my preferences much more. Mook's is... eh, it's okay. I don't like the distributions and the weakness of d4, and I dislike the level system, but it's not particularly flawed.
04:49:45 ER: however bad for the system, +4 is cool
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04:51:08 sy: ...Has it ever been clarified whether 4 on 1d4 is a crit or an overshot?
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04:51:29 ER: I think a 4 on a d4 is a... 4.
04:52:13 syv: I want to say it's just a crit (or success? Crits are the usual result, I guess.), but the literal part of my brain says it should be an overshot because it's max.
04:54:14 syv: Mook should have use dice for HP.
04:54:26 Devastator: I just want games to end in death.
04:54:33 Devastator: use dice for HP = never get one shotted.
04:54:42 Devastator: sofar worse from that point of view.
04:56:54 syv: Mm, that's fair. I meant more so that armor would degrade, basically having the reactive fabric effect for all equipment. But it means more numbers, yeah.
04:57:39 syv: And the obvious interpretation of that is that it can't be hit through. -.-
05:10:43 ER: beaglerush xcom is the best show
05:12:57 syv: Doesn't he only play like one or two missions a night...?
05:13:41 ER: two or three, unless something is really time consuming
05:14:09 syv: Mm. Getting any ideas for FMD?
05:14:12 ER: yeah he takes 20 minute turns though :P
05:15:37 ER: maybe make stats like accuracy and recoil control tied more to the guns, and characters get smaller bonuses
05:16:19 syv: Yeah. Most realistic, and gives players more options.
05:16:40 ER: like rather than have +2 skill, and gun gets +1 in certain circumstance, guns gets +2 in certain curcumstance, you get a +1 for having rifle skill
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05:49:30 Devastator: "Slowly, but without faltering, SMBC became entirely comics about misbegotten wishes."
05:50:29 syv: There's only three comics though, one of which is a dead link...?
05:50:55 ER: tags seem to be a work in progress :P
05:54:26 Devastator: SMBC is like really good.
06:05:02 Devastator: What would Pumsy do to that one?
06:05:33 ER: you can't blame pumsy for the effects of your wish, only yourself
06:05:48 ER: because he doesn't grant them, he just, uh, helps.
06:14:19 parisbre56[Away] is now known as parisbre56
06:14:56 parisbre56: sure you can. if he wasn't there you couldn't make a wish. therefore his existence is to blame
06:15:29 parisbre56: that's right. I'm here to fuck
06:17:00 ER: take care not to overdo it though.
06:17:20 ER: or I'll introduce you to my fren inner monster~
06:20:27 Devastator: I've seen someone in that situation before.
06:20:52 Devastator: anything going on today?
06:21:13 parisbre56: I dunno, let me check my phone
06:21:57 ER: I mostly know what's going on without looking at my phone
06:25:46 parisbre56: the heat combined with the elections is driving people crazy around here, I think. roads are full of people driving like crazy
06:28:34 parisbre56: well, we just had European Union elections
06:28:47 parisbre56: along with regional elections
06:29:01 parisbre56: and in a few weeks we have national elections
06:29:21 parisbre56: so everyone is trying to convince you to vote X or Y
06:30:07 parisbre56: yeah, would had been better if they did it all at once, rather than have such a prolonged pre-election period
06:30:59 ER: isn't the EU having some kind of election-related Fun?
06:31:44 parisbre56: yeah, the newly elected parliament is trying to elect a president or some such
06:42:53 parisbre56: anyway, I should get back to trying to work. later
06:42:59 parisbre56 is now known as parisbre56[Away]
07:09:44 Devastator: I do love your tachell concept.
07:09:55 Devastator: both in worldbuilding and in mechanics.
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18:45:09 Devastator: "an angry dog that cannot feel pain or fear is more than match for basically anyone who isn't holding a shotgun."
18:45:20 Devastator: I have to wonder if that's based on personal experience.
19:11:18 Devastator: playing the angel of overconfidence mode where you only have to clear the last eight levels. Had a run that could do it, and got shot into an acid barrel to die from half health.
19:13:16 Devastator: There's a fair number of attempts that are basically doomed from the start.
19:13:51 Piecewise: Well, no matter your struggles at least you didn't pay an arm and a leg for insured mail only to get a smashed to fuck box
19:14:09 Piecewise: The US postal service I assume
19:14:35 Piecewise: Now I gotta file claims and shit
19:30:00 Devastator: THREE nukes on the same level this time.
19:59:27 Devastator: notquitehere's mutation game is pretty good.
20:17:37 Devastator:
Piecewise, I was enjoying melee weapons being weaker than ranged ones.
20:17:49 Devastator: It made sense because you can defend yourself with a melee weapon, but not a ranged one.
20:18:26 Piecewise: Well, we have no rule for not shooting in close range or having disadvantage shooting closer or anything
20:21:50 Devastator: yeah, but you can't block a hit by winning the roll without a weapon.
20:21:58 Devastator: if you have one, you get to roll melee to defend yourself.
20:22:06 Devastator: or is that not how it works?
21:02:32 Devastator: Damn, that's a good start.
21:02:48 Devastator: blew a revenant up onto an early lava kill to level up to 2 after two bullets.
21:31:33 Piecewise: I didn't know doomrl used wads
21:31:42 Piecewise: attention to detail I guess
21:32:08 Piecewise: I'm currently searching for my basic resource wads and DoomRL wads came up
21:55:27 Devastator: Oh, that's why there's a special medal for that.
21:56:43 Devastator: There's a special reward for killing the end boss with one of the unique pistols.
22:01:16 Devastator: It's that way because if you max out all the +damage skills you can stunlock the boss permanently.
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23:02:22 er:
Piecewise is it possible to speech roll on PCs in mook to make them do things?
23:02:42 Piecewise: thats a good question
23:04:23 er: Unless you update too doon.
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