00:22:03 Piecewise_ has joined #einsteinianroulette
00:26:54 Piecewise_: only here for an hour between classes
00:27:08 ER: I have made a good character for this game.
00:27:31 ER: I'm mute, insane, and all my stats are terrible except for a d16 occult
00:27:51 ER: because you never said there was a max for stats
00:28:31 ER: also d16 occult will be very useful without any way to communicate my knowledge to people, I'm sure.
00:28:56 Piecewise_: "The "Expanded" part is because we don't just use a d6. We use from d4 to d12 for stats and skills, with bigger dice being better. "
00:29:08 Piecewise_: right in the basic rules
00:29:30 Piecewise_: always a good comeback
00:33:21 ER: but yeah "Characters begin with 5 points that they can spend on stats. Each point allows a stat to be raised by one die level, for example from d4 to d6, from d6 to d8 and so on."
00:33:39 ER: it doesn't actually say in character gen anywhere that you're capped
00:34:25 Devastator: Ugh, occult stats in my doom. ;-p
00:34:33 ER: no fuck you I want 16 occult
00:37:05 ER: dumb gm wanting to only use dice that actually exist
00:38:10 ER: seems confusing that one levelup takes you from d4 to d6, why not just make it more granular and use d5s and shit
00:38:22 Devastator: Does look fun, I might sign up later.
00:42:38 ER: probably best if we keep it in positive integers
01:30:55 Devastator: Oh, have you heard of Lowering the Bar,
PW?
01:40:23 ER: "For one fleeting moment, you experience the sensation of having an infinite number of tiny, wiggling bodies at the same time. It's terrible."
01:45:31 Devastator: Ferp's pretty weak.
01:54:32 ER: heh, I just now made a comment to that effect.
01:55:11 ER: most zonal critters seem to have fewer vital organs than grey biovessels.
01:58:04 ER: level is only used to avoid attacks, not as part o your own attack, right?
01:59:06 ER: Was going to mention that maggot missile could stack and make things totally unable to hit us, but I guess it doesn't actually affect the target's attack bonus.
01:59:41 ER: Still, it should be a useful tool that allows us to fight things that we normally would be unable to scratch.
02:05:23 Devastator: I think it does do attack too.
02:05:35 Devastator: Willis said something about low hearts.
02:07:03 ER: I'm pretty sure the system is... roll to attack, if it hits roll a number of d20s equal to your weapon's damage stat, each die that rolls above the enemy's level deals 1 damage.
02:09:47 ER: Fern also has a "homing upgrade" so she doesn't have to roll to hit.
02:10:31 ER: though I don't see Issac or the groper rolling to attack either this turn, so...
02:11:58 ER: I'm also not sure if the groper's "+5 modifier" means that it rolls 5 extra dice or each die gets a +5 bonus.
02:12:18 ER: None of its results is below 6 or above 20 so either is possible.
02:13:55 ER: ahh, and the groper rolled one set of dice to damage everyone in the party. Willis is higher level than us so he only took 3 damage instead of 5
02:14:36 ER: two of the groper's damage rolls were a 14, which is enough to damage us but not willis, as willis is level 15 while fern and issac are level 14.
02:18:10 Devastator: Isaac had to roll to hit.
02:24:24 ER: I only see his damage rools
02:25:25 Devastator: Those are rolls to hit.
02:25:52 ER: no, those are rolls to actually do damage after hitting.
02:26:31 Devastator: ..Yeah, the hit rolls. They're rolls to see how well your attack hits.
02:26:59 ER: Yes, I remember there being a roll before that to hit at all.
02:27:12 ER: If you missed that roll, you don't roll damage at all.
02:27:53 ER: And we got a homin upgrade to our weapon which lets us skip that roll and hit sutomatically.
02:28:58 ER: which is what the (HOMING UPGRADE ACTIVE) beside fern's stats means
02:29:01 Devastator: I don't remember that.
02:29:38 ER: though, I don't see that upgrade in our inventory so I'd have to look up where we got that
02:32:09 Devastator: we should stab things with it then.
02:32:25 ER: "Skip the strike roll entirely, always rolling for damage automatically."
02:32:49 ER: ...Problem being that I don't see anything else making strike rolls in the current combat.
02:32:55 Devastator: Yeah. I must have forgotten that.
02:32:58 Devastator: Maybe you should ask?
02:33:53 ER: Hopefully it's not a rules change that retoactively makes our chosen weapon upgrade useless. :P
02:34:29 ER: Jaggedness seems like it would have been VERY good, dealing 3 damage without even a roll
02:36:09 Devastator: but we'd need to hit to make it work.
02:38:00 ER: Yeah, I made a comment asking about it.
02:39:26 ER: ...could be they don't make strike rolls because this is a tutorial fight, to think of it.
02:39:42 Devastator: Maybe my next Pumsy's character should talk in understatement.
02:39:55 Devastator: Do they normally make attack rolls? I know Willis doesn't.
02:41:49 ER: Willis doesn't do attack rolls because "drink" isn't really an attack, just an ability that does damage.
02:42:31 ER: Apparently the groper just doesn't need to strike roll because of its nature, and Bog forgot to have Issac do an attack roll.
02:49:11 Devastator: of course you can do another primary while sustaining a previous one.
02:49:28 Devastator: Now
syv's going to enact those orders and cost a -second- major soul cost.
02:51:45 ER: I think
syv would interprit that as a maintainence, not as casting it again.
02:52:21 Devastator: "Second up - continue to create illusions to distract, confuse, and divert fire."
02:52:27 Devastator: 'continue to create' means 'create more'
02:52:29 ER: Safer if Twin didn't word it as "continue to create illusions" because that WOULD be an activation cost and primary
02:52:43 ER: but I thiiiink that it's safe. ish.
02:54:07 Devastator: I can't also say it's 100% the wrong move, really.
02:54:14 Devastator: Making more illusions is defensable!
02:54:38 Devastator: I'd just like to make sure Twin knows what can be done.
02:54:49 Devastator: That also probably explains the lack of semblance use.
02:55:00 Devastator: If you can't use any of your powers while Semblance is running, it'd be a lot shittier.
02:57:04 ER: You could really be better about communicating these things to your comrades tbh. :P
02:58:27 ER: Game's been running for a while so I don't blame people for forgetting rules such as maintainence.
02:58:33 Devastator: sometimes I get stuff wrong, too.
02:58:43 Devastator: Twin also hasn't been actually using any powers.
03:04:24 ER: I honestly DO think that it would be unreasonable to cast Semblance again here.
03:04:45 ER: Another large cost for little marginal value.
03:04:58 Devastator: but it's not that bad an idea.
03:05:03 Devastator: I mean, I've heard worse.
03:05:21 ER: Yeah, I've heard worse. From you, this labrynth.
03:05:22 Devastator: If Twin goes with my suggestion to add fake music to help draw fire, that would probably be worth it.
03:06:04 Devastator: What's been all my stupid ideas? Outside of marshmallow pie.
03:06:14 Devastator: (being serious here.)
03:07:04 ER: The witch really hates music that's not hers. If an illusion of music is coming from a place with no visible source of music, she might use standard magical girl magic senses to trace the music's origin back to Mina.
03:07:50 Devastator: ..so put it on one of the illusions, one that's dodging about and being used to draw fire.
03:09:07 ER: That's a possibility. I still think that it's decidedly unsafe if not executed right.
03:09:48 Devastator: So is fighting witches, really.
03:10:18 ER: Fighting witches seems to be safer than fighting familiars.
03:10:39 Devastator: Outside of being dead?
03:10:51 ER: Because if you win a witch fight, you'll probably make back the MP and HP you invested in the fight.
03:11:23 ER: If you win a familiar fight, you get... um, nothing.
03:11:43 ER: No soul regen, no power upgrades.
03:12:19 ER: At least if you pick a fight with humans you might be able to use their equipment.
03:14:09 ER: The only time you should be fighting familiars is when you can win very cheaply and risk-free, meaning that there's less risk in engaging than in leaving it alive, or it threatens to kill you if you can't take care of it, or if you absolutely cannot get to the witch without destroying it.
03:15:02 ER: You miiiiight make a profit from it if you're a brave with vengeance. Otherwise, there's no binefit.
03:15:23 Devastator: Yeah, it's gotta be part of the mission.
03:57:56 ER: This seems like an interesting way to balance combat drugs.
03:59:41 ER: You have a pool resource called "focus", and aiming a gun will temporarially use up half you max. Unused focus is what you use for perception rolls and such, so focusing on aiming will make it harder to notice other things but that's not the point.
04:00:43 ER: Pain and using drugs will generally use up your focus just the same as aiming does, so taking drugs will eventually make you unable to use the aim action, which makes guns a lot less useful.
04:01:39 ER: On the other hand, you won't need as much focus for melee and such, so drugs can still help if you're more frontline.
04:07:46 Devastator: Maybe I should get Alida some meth. ;-p
04:09:11 Devastator: (not going to do it.)
04:09:59 ER: Even I just settled on alcohol for sophia's addition. ;V
04:23:09 Devastator: "It's about thirteen million candlepower which is fairly bright actually"
04:32:24 Devastator: "There used to be a door here, but it fell off ages ago. And we lost it".
04:37:54 Devastator: "...and 7th was actually the old 10th which had been renamed 7th because the original 7th had disappeared…"
04:39:57 ER: Determination is what you use to not die, and when you die you eventually respawn with increased corruption. Too much corruption and you'll become a demon and can lose control or die permanantly. So, should respawning refill determination?
04:40:42 Devastator: That'd remove the point of respawn corruption.
04:40:55 ER: Right now I'm thinking no, actually. You can just choose to not spend determination and instead die if maintaining determination is more important than maintaining corruption.
04:46:42 ER: I like the idea that the universe only knows what to do with people when they die if they're native to that universe.
04:46:54 ER: So in hell, only demons can die permanantly.
04:47:18 ER: Anyone else who ends up there the hell universe just shrugs and says "uh, you survive i guess"
04:48:35 ER: also means that if a demon ends up in the normal world, you can't kill it. :P
04:56:16 ER: how is Determination, Focus, Corruption, and movement speed for base stats?
04:56:52 ER: Stats for things that you don't roll. Skills are for anything that needs a skill roll.
04:57:25 ER: Maybe melee weapon attack, but I don't really like that.
05:01:22 Devastator: Well, maybe I should bring a chainsaw then.
05:03:43 ER: Let's see, a chainsaw would be something heavy, probably a malus to-hit with it. It probably deals lethal damage with no or very little way to mitigate it.
05:14:41 Devastator: the chainsaw never runs out of ammo.
05:17:17 Devastator: ...That just makes me sad.
05:17:32 Devastator:
Piecewise_, in Doom 4, does the chainsaw run out of ammo?
05:19:26 ER: The chainsaw has fuel, and acts as an instakill for any enemy, consuming more fuel the larger the enemy you kill with it. Performing a chainsaw kill drops a bunch of ammo for all your guns.
05:19:55 Devastator: I'm sorry, but it's just..
05:20:06 Devastator: It means you have a chainsaw, but you have to be careful when you use it!
05:20:13 Devastator: It's a crime against everything that is Doom!
05:21:30 ER: No, it means that at any time you can whip out a chainsaw and ruin one demon in particular's eternity, and you know insinctually when this should happen, because the best time is when you run out of ammo for all your favorite guns.
05:23:23 ER: Also, you can just punch at any time, if the chainsaw were unlimited, there would be no point to it.
05:24:06 ER: It would be just a better punch that takes longer to take out, which is an utterly uninteresting tactical consideration.
05:24:20 ER: In fact, it would reward WAITING AROUND.
05:24:53 ER: And if the chainsaw were just a better melee, we would miss out on a whole set of wonderful glory kill animations
05:26:03 ER: This design improves flow and introduces a cycle where you shoot, shoot, shoot, chainsaw reload shoot. This is perfect for a berserker game.
05:26:39 ER: Same as MGR rewards you with a health and energy refill for killing enemies with a precise cut.
05:26:49 Devastator: Have the chainsaw as the standard melee.
05:26:58 Devastator: Save the fist kill animations for powerups or special purposes.
05:27:21 Devastator: So normally you rip them to shreds with a chainsaw. It's only when things get awesome that you break out your fists.
05:27:45 ER: This way things are always awesome, constantly.
05:28:08 Devastator: Nah, because you don't have a chainsaw when you can have a chainsaw.
05:28:53 ER: You *always* have a chainsaw, and use it at evenly spaced intervals!
05:29:02 Devastator: 'evenly spaced intervals'
05:29:08 Devastator: Which means 'not all the time.'
05:29:15 ER: Meanwhile you're shooting and punching things to death, which might be even more awesome.
05:29:29 Devastator: Nah. Should save the punching for special purposes.
05:29:36 ER: Shoot to weaken, zip up and punch its head in.
05:30:28 ER: Honestly what I'm getting here is that you think they should just swap the punch glory kill and saw glory kill animations.
05:34:03 Devastator: I don't like kill animations in general. I just want to use a chainsaw as a melee weapon.
05:34:57 ER: okay, in this case you have no taste and I guess you can just keep playing doom2, which is good and lacks kill animations.
05:35:45 Devastator: I want to keep moving, not sit there and watch.
05:35:51 Devastator: keep the game fast.
05:41:25 Devastator: Yay, pancake man did more videos.
05:41:28 Devastator: "I collect the star Big Boo's Balcony in BBH using 0 A presses using a faster strat than was previously done. Specifically, this strat reduces the total time by 10 hours, from 13 hours to 3 hours."
05:57:29 ER: if both pain and drugs have the same effect of investing your Focus... what do painkillers do?
06:27:20 ER: so far this is looking like a somewhat freakish system. I so want to try it out.
06:37:02 ER: guess we could have a fifth stat for carry capacity.
06:42:45 ER: something heavy like a chainsaw does lethal to even strong/armored things, but attacking with it uses stamina.
06:45:18 ER: with this system, you could "sprint" while standing still if you wanted to get lots of melee reaction attacks.
06:47:46 ER: Every unused tile of movement is one reaction attack on the enemy turn, which I stole from
PW because I like it.
06:48:10 ER: Makes swarm fights interesting.
06:49:50 ER: seems fine but maybe I want to rename sprint to "burst" or something.
06:53:31 Devastator: Nah, no sense in using more complex words.
06:54:41 ER: And I can give weapons, like, "3AP when bursting"
06:54:46 Devastator: Eh. I'd prefer to use it for the spell that makes hearts explode.
06:55:16 ER: okay yeah I hadn't actually thought about magic yet.
07:00:55 Devastator: Thoughts on the chainsaw issue above?
07:02:15 Devastator: I think that limited ammo chainsaws is a bad thing because it means less chainsawing.
07:02:22 Devastator: but
ER prefers to have the chainsaw-kill cutscenes.
07:02:43 ER: it's just good game design mate
07:03:29 Devastator: If you have to have kill cutscenes, those would make more sense to be fist-based, as then you can have the badass situation of the chainsaw being only for the casual murder.
07:04:56 ER: instant kill animations are one of the best things to happen to videogames tbh
07:04:56 Piecewise_: I understand the purpose of it in DOOM. Its a limited use "Kill this thing" button that also refills the ammo of other guns
07:05:27 Devastator: Third worst thing, after unlockables and microtransactions.
07:05:36 ER: get into position, time it right, bam enemy's just fucking dead.
07:05:48 Piecewise_: Unlockable microtransactions to buy instant kill moves
07:05:56 ER: health bars are for noobs, just fucking stun and instakill fools
07:07:07 Devastator: I can take it in a game like Gods of War, but not in a shooter where you're supposed to have action, not following along a complicated set of railroad tracks.
07:07:09 ER: Like hey I kept up a combo of 8 hits without being hit, now I've earned the right to INSTANTLY BEHEAD ANY ORC
07:07:54 ER: You can't claim that shadow of mordor isn't a systemic game
07:08:23 ER: well you can, but that's an ability reserved to goblins
07:08:41 Piecewise_: You keep using that word
07:08:42 Devastator: Yeah, I don't know either.
07:08:50 Piecewise_: I don't think it means what you think it means
07:09:07 Piecewise_: game with lots of systems, maybe?
07:09:07 ER: I'll knock you over and stab your eyeballs to death
07:09:32 ER: systems that actually interact with each other
07:09:57 Devastator: Not that many games like that.
07:10:08 Devastator: Too many where it's all shackled by stuff like insta-kill cutscenes.
07:10:39 Devastator: It's saying that the shooter aspects aren't good enough.
07:10:44 ER: If you have a game mechanic that has no chance of interacting with other game mechanics, what you have isn't a mechanic it's a minigame
07:10:59 ER: and we're not here to play fucking warioware
07:11:10 ER: unless we are because warioware is pretty good
07:11:44 Piecewise_:
Dev, I will say that in doom you very rarely get to use the chainsaw that much. Fuel isn't that common and even killing one big thing can drain most or all of it
07:12:01 Piecewise_: which is better than in most games that let you spam insta-kills
07:12:17 Devastator: Then it shouldn't be in there except for people to enjoy using the chainsaw.
07:12:27 Devastator: ie, no refills and unlimited ammo for it.
07:13:55 ER: you: "kill animations are always bad because something something railroading" me, an intellectual: "kill animations can be a vital part of a good complex game, because they give the player a reward for precise play"
07:14:37 Devastator: I also don't like it when they slow the game down.
07:14:42 ER: but seriously, games are less about the ingredients and more about the balance and flow of the thing
07:15:44 ER: slowing things down for a second can give you time to plan your next move, which maintains a state of flow and stops you from getting bogged down by things like having to stay behind cover to figure out what to do.
07:15:46 Piecewise_: I mean, they don't slow the game down in doom
07:16:05 Piecewise_: Did you play doom or did you refuse to play it because you heard it has a thing you don't like in it?
07:16:17 ER: you know the answer to that
07:16:22 Devastator: I don't have it. I'm mostly continuing this to poke fun at
ER.
07:16:22 Piecewise_: And kept playing 20 year old games instead
07:16:26 Devastator: doubt my computer can run it anyway.
07:16:48 Piecewise_: You know what doom 4 has that doom 1 doesn't?
07:17:41 Piecewise_: wow that is a phrase that is just fucking nonsense outside of very specific context
07:17:42 ER: I'm so impressed that this game lets you aim up and down
07:17:55 ER: that's such an important- *yawn* feature
07:18:24 Piecewise_: I've played doom 1 and going back to that or like...golden eye is a hell of a painful transition
07:18:32 Devastator: I am annoyed at every game having to get more and more similar each generation.
07:19:14 Piecewise_: AAA is getting so expensive that they have to hit the largest markets and thus become increasingly bland
07:19:23 Piecewise_: Indies can still be weird ass shit
07:19:29 ER: anyway, why was I talking to you philistines? I have highly flawed game systems to be hammering
07:19:32 Devastator: Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
07:19:58 ER: games are getting better all the time tbh
07:20:04 Piecewise_: You talk to us philistines to fill the space where real friends would go, if you had any.
07:20:26 Devastator: There will never be another Allegiance.
07:20:30 Devastator: or another Master of Orion.
07:20:36 ER: you are real friends. well, maybe not you
07:20:59 Piecewise_:
Er you are a right bastard and I love you
07:21:39 Piecewise_:
Dev has his ancient pc games
07:21:45 Piecewise_: I have my obscure console games
07:22:40 Devastator: MoO 1 got remade twice recently. Both of them missed the point.
07:22:42 Piecewise_: I used to like Terminal Velocity on PC
07:23:18 Piecewise_: Which is 3d realms apparently
07:23:37 ER: Most of the "classics" that I've played have had one or more glaring design flaws.
07:23:57 ER: For example, PS:T has a combat system.
07:24:20 Piecewise_: Hey
dev, did you ever look at more of SSETH's videos?
07:24:26 Piecewise_: I linked you one before
07:24:40 Piecewise_: he looks at the kind of old pc games I think you might like
07:24:42 Devastator: Yeah, that one I'll totally give you,
ER.
07:24:55 Piecewise_: and some newer ones
07:25:11 Devastator: Can you link it again? I can't parse that acronym.
07:26:16 Devastator: tough to put it into ten minutes.
07:27:23 Devastator: Should mention how the lore was written by one guy high on drugs and spending ~72 hours continually awake.
07:27:53 ER: older games have lots of cool ideas, some of which are practically disappeared. But these days, many, many, many more games are made, and some of them learn from the past enough that they practically don't HAVE flaws.
07:28:19 Devastator: Unless there's something wrong with you, and you don't like being treated as a peon.
07:28:25 Piecewise_: Sseth also breaks games in a fun way
07:28:33 ER: games are getting better all the time both because the makers of games keep learning, and because more and more games are made.
07:29:51 Piecewise_: I like when a colonist gets captured by pirates he sends 3 turkeys to "help"
07:30:16 Devastator: All they seem to learn is how to turn people into money.
07:30:27 Devastator: rather than give people memories that'll last them a long time.
07:31:11 Piecewise_:
dev, are you aware of the concept of "Nostalgia"
07:32:25 ER: Today I read an RPS writer use the term "blood-tinted spectacles"
07:33:24 Piecewise_: I can't wait for all today's kids to say how games were good when fortnite was big
07:33:29 Devastator: Do look at that review, though, half the stuff described is like absurdly awesome, and will never, ever see the light of day in another game not specifically designed around that one element.
07:33:49 Devastator: To be fair, though, there's lots of game I used to play that I find aren't so good by comparison.
07:33:57 Devastator: but the very best ones seem to hold up.
07:34:09 Piecewise_: all these VR games with their wireless blowjob modules are shit compared to minecraft
07:35:09 ER: We'll get to the actually good games in, say, 200 years? Maybe 300, 350.
07:35:32 Devastator: we'll just be told how we're supposed to think about them.
07:35:57 Piecewise_: I can't even parse that
07:36:35 Devastator: Well.. yeah. Your peer group will be synthetic AIs that use peer pressure to tell you what you like, along with complex self-learning bots to give you fresh experiences.
07:36:42 ER: It's hard being an optimist in this world of grouches~
07:37:56 Devastator: Oh, the people will have good experiences. They just will be low effort by everyone involved.
07:39:51 Piecewise_: I'm not an optimist I don't think, but not a pessimist either. I think games are getting better in general, with some downsides related to the industry\
07:41:15 Devastator: I dunno. It just seems like most new games are for different people. I might have some fun playing them, but it doesn't strike me as being much different than playing anything else.
07:41:19 Piecewise_: I have all their dvds
07:42:17 Piecewise_: Yeah but you have a strange hatred for any game in which an NPC speaks.
07:42:28 Devastator: Nah, I just did that for DS 3.
07:42:59 Piecewise_: not sure how you could play Planescape, thats basically nothing but a journal ejaculating in your face for 10,000 hours
07:43:30 Devastator: probably because I could control the pace.
07:44:00 Devastator: And the hitting things is the bad part of it.
07:47:32 midnightjaguar has joined #einsteinianroulette
07:47:47 midnightjaguar: Heh. I got my roommate to start watching PM3
07:48:07 ER: are they suitably horrified?
07:48:31 midnightjaguar: He’s only on Episode 3 so not yet
07:49:14 ER: episode 3 is when the watcher gets hit with the baseball bat of murder, right?
07:49:28 midnightjaguar: Assuming watcher is Gold then yes
07:49:40 midnightjaguar: We are about to get to that part
07:50:05 midnightjaguar: I will at least
07:50:15 Piecewise_: did any of you look at magical girl site?
07:50:21 Piecewise_: it came out a season or two ago
07:50:22 Devastator: Ep 3 is when it gets interesting.
07:50:30 ER: By "watcher" I'm referring to a hypothetical person who didn't know what they were getting themselves into and actually like magical girl anime
07:50:35 Piecewise_: its peak magical girl suffering
07:50:43 Devastator: Eh, I'll let
syv know about it.
07:50:57 Devastator: Should describe your character to
PW,
ER.
07:51:03 Devastator: You might have peak suffering beat.
07:51:13 ER: peak magical girl suffering + edgy as fuck is what we're working on, though
07:53:29 Devastator: well, ten year old kid brother going on a mass murder spree due to ill-concieved wish might be up there too.
07:53:41 midnightjaguar: I mean that’s most of what pumsys is I believe
07:54:12 Devastator: Yeah, he wanted the suffering.
07:55:13 Piecewise_: Magical girl site has the meekest of girls being bullied the hardest
07:55:34 Piecewise_: They put like...1000 razorblades in her shoes
07:56:28 Devastator: That's not particularly good bullying.
07:57:11 ER: that's just the psychological torment of knowing that nobody likes you. Pfft, that's nothing.
07:57:34 Piecewise_: The bullies in that show are wack, bro
07:57:35 Devastator: The good ones also make it known that nobody will ever like you.
07:57:56 Piecewise_: they bring her to a shed to get raped and she gets magical powers and teleports them into the path of a train
07:58:26 Piecewise_: and then a time stopping magical girl slits one of the bully's throats
07:58:49 Piecewise_: Its like what happened if Madoka was written by a school shooter
07:59:05 ER: ...so pretty much my character, yeah
07:59:33 Piecewise_: Also recommend Alien Nine
07:59:53 Devastator: Yeah, yours would fit in.
07:59:59 ER: oh well, encourage
syv to watch it for inspiration, I guess
08:00:44 ER: I mean, it's really pretty simple. My character is a girl who's been a slaver for her whole life and made a wish to escape.
08:00:54 Devastator: nobody has any noses.
08:01:53 midnightjaguar: ....what char are you playing
ER?
08:01:56 ER: I have like a 2% chance to miss any time that I try to hit a keyboard key, like some kind of xcom soldier.
08:02:52 midnightjaguar: hmm. I guess I need to read Sophia’s backstory sometime the
08:02:57 ER: Zoe was the first character I made, for the test run. She was a little less grimdark.
08:03:15 ER: I've forgotten exactly what I wrote, honestly
08:03:30 Piecewise_: That could describe my entire RTD career
08:03:51 midnightjaguar: Heh same really :P
08:04:30 ER: she never knew her parents but she had some "siblings" who may or may not have been related to her. They all died over time.
08:05:12 ER: So in addition to the innate shittiness of being a slave she also watched everyone she ever loved die horribly!
08:06:19 midnightjaguar: That’s rather edgy.
08:06:34 midnightjaguar: Be careful not to cut yourself on that edge
ER :P
08:07:03 Devastator: There's still a bit to go. Did someone pay to see her murder one of her siblings?
08:07:16 ER: welp time to fufill my destiny and make my living by writing edgy web novels or something
08:07:42 midnightjaguar: Hey I mean it worked for the worm guy
08:08:02 ER: Of course there's farther to go
08:08:27 Devastator: Ugh. Worm wasn't bad, but I have no desire to re-read it.
08:08:33 Devastator: Was a good read for the first time, though.
08:08:47 midnightjaguar: I’ve never read it just that everyone has put me off from reading it
08:09:42 Devastator: Keep us informed as to the PM3 victim.
08:10:17 ER: "are you having fun yet? There's still 9 more episodes of this"
08:10:42 ER: IS THIS NOT WHY YOU ARE HERE?
08:11:22 midnightjaguar: I will
dev don’t you worry
08:11:58 Devastator: It's mostly that the show keeps escalating.
08:12:21 Devastator: Stuff keeps happening.
08:14:33 midnightjaguar: Right now we are on 4 and watching the mind fuck that is getting stuck in a labruinth without powers
08:15:09 ER: in which pink is saved by a fucking idiot
08:15:33 Devastator: How's he liking it so far?
08:15:50 midnightjaguar: Seems to like it.
08:16:14 Piecewise_: I'm surprised you guys haven't tried saikano yet
08:17:35 Piecewise_: that one has a lot of the ideas of Madoka, including the dark side of "Magical girl" ness and horrific suffering
08:19:21 Devastator: Hang on, that one's ringing a bell with me.
08:20:20 midnightjaguar: Is the bell labeled PM3
dev :P
08:21:22 Devastator: No.. something else.
08:21:41 Piecewise_: I did once say that episode 9 of the series is pretty fucking heart wrenching
08:22:06 Devastator: Must have been from you.
08:22:13 Devastator: Ahh, now I remember. Yeah, you've mentioned that one before.
08:22:33 Piecewise_: Because you know in Madoka the blue hair'd chick and her unrequited love that, despite the bad end, isn't terrible?
08:22:42 Devastator: the world-destroying robot thing.
08:22:43 Piecewise_: like it goes bad but she kind of seems to accept it?
08:23:06 Piecewise_: episode 9 has something like that, but it is far worse
08:23:56 midnightjaguar: Anyway I need to sleep so goodnight gents
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08:25:22 Piecewise_: you see characters die in anime but rarely do they die in a way that is so realistic. Literally laying in their death bed, crying, terrified, sobbing about unrequited love and dreams unfulfilled
08:26:41 Piecewise_: Saikano is one long, bleak descent into oblivion
08:27:01 Devastator: Might be too bleak for me.
08:27:25 Piecewise_: it ends with less hope than
ER too
08:27:51 Piecewise_: You might wanna give it a try but just be aware, it doesn't pull punches
08:28:28 ER: ...when you're able to TELL that something's pulling punches, it doesn't feel good.
08:28:45 ER: therefore, I guess not pulling punches is great.
08:29:07 Piecewise_: Yeah Madoka ends with friendship saving the day
08:29:27 ER: well, that's just how magic works
08:29:34 Piecewise_: Saikano don't have none of that. I don't know if there are even friends left in the end
08:30:19 Devastator: It'd be phenomially hard to have less hope than
ER.
08:30:31 ER: also it suggests to me that in this universe it just sometime happens that some random girl gets infinite power and totally rewrites the universe in a way that doesn't actually fix anything, which is both hilarious and intriguing.
08:30:37 Piecewise_: Saikano revolves around war, and not a namby pamby far away one. A "Your best friend just died in a firebombing last night" war
08:32:53 ER: also please do not describe
ER with words such as "hopeful" while in the goblin's presence, you might agitate it.
08:34:26 Devastator: It's okay, not like anyone other than me thought of
ER that way.
08:35:21 ER: You do like to assume that any powerful AI is a literal god and is actively meddling in everything.
08:35:53 Devastator: only when there's dimensional teleportation and galaxy-spanning FTL communications.
08:43:33 Piecewise_: Yoink's profile pic reminds me of
ER
08:43:58 Piecewise_: Maybe because I view Egan as an angry racoon sometimes
08:44:27 ER: fun fact, I disagree with Yoink on pretty much everything ever.
08:45:04 ER: We do seem to look slightly similar.
08:50:32 ER: What's the best way to have mechanics along the lines of "maximum-maximum hitpoints"
08:51:20 ER: like, you have hitpoints, which you can lose and gain and can't have more than your MHP, and you can lose your MHP but get it back after a long rest or such
08:51:59 ER: to keep track of how to undo temporary MHP damage, you need to have a concept of MMHP. :V
08:56:44 ER: I'll fuck u up with my racoon claws
08:59:28 Devastator: I suppose I'll go start Saikano. Might be some good inspiration there.
09:00:53 Devastator: "wishing for uncapped power doesn't end well."
09:02:38 Devastator: Thanks for putting up with me,
PW.
09:06:04 Piecewise_: Just until I find how to start putting down with you~
09:07:30 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
09:08:55 Devastator: since I'd like to go that route in a game, wouldn't mind seeing particularly horrifying aspects of it.
09:09:40 syv: This is a syvarris service announcement: Please stop recommending things because they are sad and have bad stuff happening. That's not what I like. I like things which surprised me, I like violence, guns, cats, and gore. Most of the terribly deoressing, bleak, everything-is-terrible media I've seen is painfully predictable, and utterly BORING.
09:10:20 syv: PM3 was good because it did unexpected and clever things, while still making sense. It surprised me.
09:10:30 Devastator: It was really well put together.
09:10:43 syv: It also had plenty of violence, and cats.
09:10:59 ER: I like things that surprise me but I'm also just edgy so I think either works, tbh. :V
09:11:05 syv: I meant guns, not cats. It could have been improved with cats.
09:11:09 Devastator: That review of alien 9 was saying it had sad stuff but it was more bizarre and unexpected stuff.
09:11:12 Piecewise_: Did you ever seen kino's journey
Sy?
09:11:25 Devastator: Heard of it. Chuck's reviewing it like he did PM3.
09:11:31 Devastator: but he doesn't seem to think as highly of it as PM3.
09:11:41 Piecewise_: You might wanna try it. The old one, not the new one
09:11:51 syv: Like every time I see you you recommend me at least two things, and the funny thing I don't even watch stuff on my own. I watch stuff socially.
09:11:52 Devastator: (It was his recommendation that made me watch it, which made me recommend it to you guys.)
09:12:32 Piecewise_: We should all get together and watch a few eps of Kino some time
09:12:38 syv: Oh, does anyone have a link to the doom game?
09:12:58 syv: Remove the all, and that'll work fine.
09:12:59 Piecewise_: not a nice thing to call
sy,
er
09:13:03 Devastator: Maybe. I think we've got more overlord and AoT lined up.
09:13:19 Devastator: 3 things might be too much to juggle at once.
09:13:26 Piecewise_: well, eventually maybe
09:13:38 syv: I'd like more delay before watching more OL. And honestly I only watch AoT because I really love the gane.
09:13:49 ER: do we like jormangand enough to keep watching it,
syv?
09:14:21 Devastator: I have heard there's less sex-demon stuff in the next season.
09:14:27 syv: I think you like it more than me, but yeah, it seems decent. It has enough well-drawn guns that the plot doesn't really matter, and the plot is decent enough at times.
09:15:03 Devastator: ..it might be easier if you just made a playlist for us and we have a night or something.
09:15:11 Devastator: Too many suggestions!
09:15:38 syv: Outlaw Star makes me think of Cowboy Bebop, which was boring. Big O sounds like something only you'd recommend, so no. These others are just becoming words, so nonono.
09:16:03 Piecewise_: Outlaw star is spaceships fist fighting you pleb
09:16:03 ER: hey
Piecewise_ Paris is asking about Mook in the discord
09:16:33 Devastator: get
Paris over here.
09:16:59 Devastator: If you can set up a logbot you can get on the channel. ;-p
09:17:56 Piecewise_: And big o is a goddamn classic. Its batman in a mech suit.
09:19:24 Piecewise_: Also has a very unique retrofuturistic /art deco design
09:19:43 syv: In other words: The names of these things provides zero information about what they are, and are thus useless.
09:20:18 Piecewise_: The robot in Big O is named "Big O"
09:20:26 Devastator: Batman in a mech suit is tempting.
09:20:49 syv:
ER, do you even know who Clem is? It makes me sad that you're not referencing the memes. ._.
09:21:24 syv: Eh. Mechs are boring. They're just slow and bloodless people in general.
09:21:53 syv: Often with slow and boring guns, like lasers.
09:21:59 ER: that's before you weld ten thousand rocket boosters and missiles and lasers and laser sword to them
09:22:20 syv: That doesn't sound like Batman. Batman just punches a bunch of people.
09:22:31 ER: I agree that batman is boring
09:22:50 ER: batman is the extremely boring half of batman in a mech suit
09:22:52 syv: Mechs are awesome if you can customize them, so they're cool in games, but then that's lost in shows. Especially anime, where they get extra punchy.
09:23:56 syv: The awesomeness of punching scales in direct correlation to the elaborateness of the punches, and mechs especially tend to rely on the ultra simple and boring haymaker.
09:24:37 Piecewise_: I mean, the big O does have giant built in pistons to do huge piston punches
09:24:43 ER: if a giant fucking legged battle machine is doing anything simply, someone has done their job very wrong
09:25:31 ER: because that's both boring and unrealistic. Take a large enough machine and shit's going to get downright confusing
09:25:32 syv: Now the punches are somewhat less boring. Does it have well drawn MP5s?
09:26:43 ER: though honestly mixing mechs with flying battlemages is the coolest thing and I have seen pretty much nothing that does that that I didn't personally make
09:26:47 Piecewise_: I dunno if it has well drawn mp5s, but it does have a fair amount of military stuff. though its of questionable use. Godzilla vs army style thing
09:28:16 ER: I really must admit that "mech" to me tends to mean something a lot smaller than most buildings. Kaiju fights are boring.
09:28:34 syv: Yes. Power armor tends to be a lot cooler.
09:28:47 ER: tanks and/or fighter jets with legs and arms and weird tech things are awesome though
09:29:10 ER: and yes, infantry in fancy tech armor
09:29:27 Devastator: Okay, need a name for a redshirt.
09:29:39 Devastator: Something ineffectual.
09:29:54 Piecewise_: How about Metal Skin Panic Madox?
09:30:09 ER: fast power armor. WH40K space marines in big beefy power armor being entirely too large is the most boring part of that setting.
09:30:10 Piecewise_: this intro scene is cool, even if you don't like the thing itself
09:32:27 Piecewise_: What about Roujin Z, the story of an old man in a power armor sick bed?
09:33:43 ER: more gun, more murder, more cat
09:34:11 ER: just cycle between those three things real fast and you've got him.
09:34:45 syv: You know what some videogame should do? It should have randomly generated names for all the Empire's mooks wearing face-concealing armor, which only ever is used for putting their names on their armor.
09:35:01 ER: ...Ocean is a thing that would be heavy on the gun and cat, but it's not actually a very murder-heavy setting.
09:35:18 Devastator remembers how in the 2009 Ghostbusters game they gave the player character ghostbuster a suit that says "Rookie."
09:35:37 syv: Murder is nice but unnecessary if what happens is interesting. Or if the guns are good enough.
09:35:56 ER: What makes a good gun to you?
09:36:13 Piecewise_: I'm off. got class tomorrow and such
09:36:14 ER: I don't really know too much about real-world gun models
09:36:20 Piecewise_: should update stuff tomorrow too
09:37:45 Devastator: posted sheet in mooks.
09:37:49 Devastator: Someone who wants to be here this time.
09:38:05 syv: I can spend stat point in MOOK on skills, yes?
09:38:29 syv: ...I'll assume I can, because people are doing that.
09:38:46 Devastator: I think so. I did that too..
09:39:02 syv: @
ER drawn well, looking like the real gun. Operating properly.
09:39:57 syv: Yeah, it seems obvious, but the rules literally say they can be used to upgrade stats. And stats are a different thing from skills. But both are statistics, so I assume he's just using the same word to refer to different groups.
09:40:09 Devastator: Thanks for the sweet answers in Pumsy's.
09:41:05 ER: My first thought was that you'd interprit that bold text favorably, but it's better safe than sorry.
09:41:20 Piecewise_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
09:41:42 Devastator: Well, we'll find out later.
09:41:49 Devastator: dubs has big day tomorrow updating everything.
09:42:43 ER: oh,
PW just said that the stat points are split between stats and skills
09:42:55 ER:
Paris was asking if he got 5 for each
09:43:25 syv: If quality is maintained during animation, and the camera is positioned such to APPRECIATE it, then the gun is well drawn and is a bonus to the show.
09:43:48 syv: Notably, the camera is important and is where most live action shows screw up. -.-
09:44:46 syv: Also, "SVD Sniper Rifle" is an idiotic statement.
09:45:05 ER: I know little enough about SVDs that I could only tell you the difference between those two pictures by looking at them side by side
09:45:29 Devastator: I know what anime
syv wants.
09:45:54 syv: SVD stands for Snayperskaya Vintovka Dragunova, literally "Dragunov's Sniper Rifle", so "SVD Sniper Rifle" is like saying "Dragunov's Sniper Rifle Sniper Rifle".
09:46:15 syv: Also, it's a designated marksman rifle, not a sniper rifle.
09:46:23 Devastator: What are you talking about?
09:46:28 syv:
Dev, I think I would hate that.
09:46:29 Devastator: It's got sniper rifle right in the name!
09:46:42 syv: Doesn't matter, it's misnamed.
09:46:51 ER: so it's literally called a sniper rifle, but it's actually a DMR? :P
09:47:30 ER: they should just call them all "rifles for shooting at fuckers in the distance"
09:48:05 syv: It's also used as a sniper rifle, especially early on into its adoption, despite being kind of shit in that role. It's an exceptionally well designed DMR. It's a poor sniper rifle.
09:48:27 Devastator: eh, prefer machine guns.
09:48:33 Devastator: those are all the sexy weapons.
09:48:33 ER: I can sort of understand the difference between a sniper and a designated marksman, but how do the actual guns differ in operation?
09:48:46 syv: Like the fucking side mounted, quick release scope. It's simultaneously insane, and genius.
09:49:45 ER: insane + genius + weapon, yup it's soviet made
09:49:53 Devastator: so Ally can learn demon magic too?
09:50:03 syv: The scope is raised off of the top of the gun, and there's enougn space between to use the iron sights without removing it. Which makes it greast at close ranges compared to other scoped rifles, and functional even if the scope is damaged, which is very Russian.
09:50:09 ER: though this isn't really demon magic
09:50:19 syv: The scope also has a quick release, making the iron sights even more usable.
09:50:25 ER: just "the art", which is the generic magic system of the setting
09:51:04 syv: ...Buuuut the attachment point is terrible from an accuracy standpoint. You always want the scope mounted directly to the barrel if possible, and mounted STRONG. That's a core trait of good SRs. It helps them hold a zero.
09:51:10 Devastator: Hmm, should check if she's growing tobacco plants.
09:51:15 ER: demon magic would be more like devil binding, making deals with devils, giving them names and masks
09:51:24 Devastator: Didn't she do that already?
09:52:07 syv: Beyond that, it's simply not very accurate for a sniper rifle. A good, well-maintained model can get sub MOA, but only just. And the scope it's designed to use is pretty low quality and simple, which is weird since Russia has a history of making great scopes.
09:52:17 Devastator: could be some tobacco. Plants are too generic looking.
09:52:32 ER: well she kinda has two devils following her around for complicated squishy personal reasons, but she did literally go up to an ebon devil and make a deal with him
09:52:49 Devastator: and bound him, and gave him names and a mask.
09:53:46 syv: It's hilarious that her other pet demon is named C-O-C-A C-O-L-A.
09:54:16 ER: but yeah, i think that The Art is the more purely knowledge based magic system, where you just exploit the hell out of the universe like a DnD wizard.
09:55:28 ER: there's also various martial arts that are pretty much basic which work by cultivating forces in your body.
09:56:09 ER: And the key of kings stuff which is... technology based on knowledge about god stolen from an elder angel combined with sheer willpower.
09:57:05 Devastator: ..by someone else, and bestowed upon her for no readily apparent reason.
09:57:09 ER: Zoss managed to beat up the angels before making his key though, which was presumably a combination of The Art, martial arts, being strong and sexy, and sheer willpower.
09:57:23 Devastator: She's got Jack and Coke.
09:58:52 syv: Absolutely sufficiently advanced.
10:00:21 ER: I say it's technology not because it's not magic, but because it's a kinda-physical object that someone made using knowledge about the nature of reality.
10:00:43 Devastator: ..if knowing is how you make it, sounds like magic..
10:01:58 ER: so if you don't know how the fuck it works, or you don't have to know how the fuck it works, it's not magic?
10:02:14 syv: Yeah, spontaneously summoned fireballs are clesrlu technology.
10:02:33 Devastator: Please tell me how your monitor works. ;-p
10:02:49 ER: Is making some weird poses which cause your body to gain the ability to barf a martial arts beam magic?
10:03:32 syv: A bunch of lights shining and/or flashing.
10:04:04 ER: well, it's a big old grid of pixils which are each made up of three lights colored red, green, and blue, and they're all wired together and controlled by a computer, which is the thing that's actually magic.
10:04:33 syv: Nooo, I think that's outdated.
10:04:40 syv: Unless your monitor is really old.
10:05:17 ER: The fact remains that computers are pretty much magic
10:05:36 ER: This world has a magic system and it's called "electricity"
10:06:08 syv: Magic is something that isn't explained in detail on Wikipedia.
10:06:27 Devastator: Eh, I more meant that you have to personally know something about magic to use it.
10:06:28 ER: The rules for electricity are fuckin arcane
10:06:34 Devastator: Technology doesn't give a fuck.
10:07:25 ER: I couldn't tell you how wikipedia works, it's still magic
10:08:33 ER: I know that it's a whole bunch of webfiles presumably on some servers somewhere, and that all the information on it is provided by other users.
10:08:51 ER: I know how it works socially, but not technically.
10:09:19 syv: Ah. Yeah, I'll agree, I don't really grok the tehnology behind the internet.
10:09:21 ER: Well, I do have a picture of how internet information sending works in general
10:09:48 ER: packets and handshakes and IP adresses and shit like that
10:11:47 ER: I send information to a server running some sort of IRC server software, using an address I've saved somewhere on my computer which the internet somehow magics up to an actual path for data to be shared between my machine and the server machine god knows where.
10:12:02 syv: ...But what's actually happening inside all the many computers involved, with all the little bits of charge rapidly switching and flowing, is utterly arcane. I understand it on a vauge level, I've played with circuits and read about silly artificial computers created in games and such, but I don't understand it on a level that I could recreate it on my own.
10:12:17 Devastator: Actually, IRC is quite a bit more straightforward.
10:12:19 ER: From there the internet magics up a connection from the server to your machine and my words get passed along
10:12:25 Devastator: you could probably learn it from principles pretty easily.
10:12:46 ER: IRC is one of the simplest things you could use the internet for
10:14:17 ER: still, I couldn't remake it myself
10:15:12 ER: maybe I could make something vaguely resembling it if I had someone working for me with the physical part of building things down and a lot of time to think and come up with prototypes, but no I do not know how it all works.
10:16:10 ER: because a lot of things happen in the parts I summerized with "the internet magics up a connection between me and the server" and the part where the data becomes words
10:16:33 ER: and jeez, where the keyboard presses become words
10:16:47 Devastator: Could you do a teletext?
10:17:14 syv: The brain is the truest magic we yet know of. Unless you count physics, which is kinda in the opposite direction,
10:18:04 ER: if both me and the person on the other end know what we're doing, we could pass information to each other with smoke signals.
10:18:27 ER: I think in that case I'd understand what was happening on every level and might not have to consider it magic.
10:18:58 ER: oh, if you want to get into biology, that's all some sort of sorcery too
10:21:05 syv: At least we have a pretty good understanding of a lot of biology. The brain, we understand on a kind've basic level, but how it does what it does, that's just magic.
10:21:09 ER: all the processes which differenciate a cell from a tiny bag of water. We can list all the stuff that's going on there, but the end result is that you have a physical object which is alive. eats things, makes chemicals, moniters and adjusts its own internal state, copies all the information for how to build inself into a copy of itself.
10:21:17 Devastator: It's probably where I would start if you want to get into visual data encoding.
10:21:22 syv: Using "we" to mean humans as a unified entity.
10:21:32 Devastator: We can't list all the stuff that's going on down there,
ER.
10:21:38 Devastator: We know shit about biology. ;-p
10:22:04 ER: The brain's a bunch of nodes connected to each other which can signal each other and if you put enough of that in one place magic happens
10:22:13 Devastator: I mean, Derek Lowe's blog just had a post saying someone finally figured out how Quinine works, over a hundred years after its discovery.
10:22:19 syv: We know a lot of it, though. We can modify cells, planning for them to do something, and have them do it. Not always for all goals, I guess, but sometimes.
10:22:24 Devastator: The brain also seems to be not just nodes.
10:22:58 syv: This is relevant to my interests, details?
10:23:45 ER: Some of the "AI" stuff we're making is magic even for the people who are making it, because they're less making it and more creating a setup where it creates itself.
10:23:48 Devastator: Sorry, don't have anything on hand.
10:24:29 syv: Yes. At least neural nets we sort of understand why and how they work, though. Better than brains, which they're based on.
10:24:35 ER: and the end result is that you have a computer program which can tell you if an image contains a dog. And it's usually right and that's pretty much magic.
10:24:54 syv: And when it's wrong, it's wrong for arcane, nonsensical reasons!
10:25:28 ER: it's pretty much a magic system where bad rolls make things randomly fail!
10:25:45 syv: You can actually dissect neural nets and learn something about how they function, BTW. Not all nodes are easily understood, but some perform very roles.
10:26:30 ER: That's true, but it's still not something you can build by hand like a normal program.
10:26:54 Devastator: ..People don't build normal programs by hand, though.
10:27:03 ER: It's weird enough that you kind of *need* to have a system which partially sets itself up.
10:27:11 syv: Some do, but yeah, that's a good point.
10:27:46 Devastator: And yeah, some do, but most of the time don't you have at least two layers of compilers?
10:28:04 syv:
ER makes a valid point as well, in the sense that nobody really knows *how* to make a neural net by hand. But there's people who know how to write simple programs in assembly.
10:28:36 syv: That's not done for many good reasons, but the point stands that it *can* be done.
10:28:54 syv: People don't dig ditches with spoons either, but spoon digging isn't magic.
10:29:13 Devastator: Yeah, but you're not writing it by hand..
10:29:52 syv: Point stands that as far as understanding, there's humans who could do it, no matter how low level you go.
10:30:00 syv: The same is not true for NNs.
10:30:31 Devastator: Mmm, I'm not sure that's true. There's stuff that people don't understand, yet can be used.
10:30:40 Devastator: the classic question about bicycles, after all.
10:31:29 Devastator: and, as of a month ago, Quinine..
10:31:53 ER: stick a bike on an anomalous planetoid and it's space magic
10:32:07 syv: I'm not saying that many people understadn the thing. I'm saying *anyone* does. Nobody understands NNs on a deep enough level to recreate them by hand. There are absolutely people who understand bicycles well enough to make them by hand, same for circuits, and that information can be *shared*.
10:32:37 Devastator: Hmm? There isn't anyone who can tell you why bicycles work, though.
10:33:00 Devastator: And sure, you've added 'by hand' to the neural networks, but that's not much different than, say, making cheese.
10:33:02 syv: If you want to be ultra basic and include resource gathering in the meaning, well, our society has the ability to create a human who can create a bicycle from scratch. Even if they don't exist, they could, by a straighforward method.
10:33:25 ER: well, we *do* know how to make a neural net, it just involves making things to do the work for you. Just like you probably want a wrench to make a bike.
10:33:48 syv: The same wasn't true of quinine before we understood it. That was information which simply didn't exist for us.
10:34:11 Devastator: It could be made, though.
10:34:16 Devastator: it was known how to synthesize it.
10:34:29 syv: If you had taken the combined knowledge of all humans and queried it about quinine, you'd get nothing. Bicycles, well, every step of the process would have an answer.
10:34:53 syv: ...Are you arguing that people don't understand how bicycles move?
10:35:13 Devastator: The self-steering issue is still unsolved.
10:35:30 Devastator: same with the 'ice is slippery' stuff.
10:35:33 ER: I wonder how many things that are mysterious now would be suddenly super obvious if you managed to actually combine all of human knowledge into one mind.
10:36:05 syv: Bicycles are self steering, but the last time I rode one it kept self-steering into poles.
10:36:34 syv: Probably a lot. Either that, or nothing, because there would be too much information.
10:37:15 ER: head don't splode if you make a large enough skull!
10:37:36 Devastator: That gets you sent to the Skull Throne.
10:37:39 ER: And we'll call it Deep Thought and ask it to tell us The Answer
10:38:12 syv: THAT MEANS YOU HAVE HUGE BRAINS
10:39:49 Devastator: eh, hope Mook ends up okay.
10:41:06 ER: if nothing else I'll doubtlessly get a chance to be a big idiot at least once and might die if
PW is feeling particularly killy that day.
10:42:29 Devastator: Maybe you should append a soundtrack to each of your posts.
10:43:01 ER: I'll probably put this playlist in Refine's OP. :P
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10:58:12 Elastic_Ridicule: random meaningless musing: PS's system for assisting other people's actions is unusually optimistic
10:58:40 Elastic_Ridicule: even if you're terrible at the thing in question, you can only help, not get in the way.
10:59:29 Elastic_Ridicule: many systems, if you try to "help" someone you'll have a decent chance to make things worse for everyone.
11:00:24 Elastic_Ridicule: Making things worse for everyone is a theme of PMMM and PS, so this is a small window of sunshine an happiness in an otherwise bleak and terrible world ;P
11:01:25 syv: Counterpoint: In a lot of ways, working with others is dangerous, risky, and downright penalizing. There needs to be a counter that makes working with other people clearly beneficial.
11:01:46 syv: Also, power of friendship being a thing sounds thematically appropriate.
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11:02:29 ER: I mean, this is an example of power of friendship actually working in practice
11:03:57 ER: It does make sense in a lot of ways, it just strikes me as funny that this is the thing that your system is more forgiving about than average.
11:07:43 ER: I guess the fact that the main things that are forgiving are teamwork and using magic is pretty thematic.
11:08:18 ER: Because yeah, magical girl magic isn't the type that really supposed to have a misfire chance built in
11:09:28 syv: I recall writing a big long essay awhile ago about balancing magic systems, the various pros and cons of methods I'd seen.
11:10:27 syv: PS barely used any of the "good" methods, and "balanced" magic by making it universal.
11:14:29 ER: magic certainly hard to balance with not-magic
12:04:31 ER: hmm, I seem to have failed a spot check
12:05:02 ER: I remember an OOTS strip where V says something about the silliness of magic being balanced with not-magic, but I can't find it
12:06:21 Devastator: "It's like there's some arbritrary force in the universe providing some semblance of balance between those who can tweak with the fundamental forces of the universe, and those who cannot!"
12:13:07 ER: Oh yeah, I have a fairly large chunk of a "tactical" game system here which I'm somewhat tempted to actually use.
12:14:29 ER: Though I'm not really sure if any of it makes sense or even holds together as remotely logical outside my own brain. :P
12:15:54 Devastator: That's the best place!
12:17:54 ER: It's kinda an interation of Oroboropolis, what with the demons and such. Though I don't feel trying to give it "construct-an-abomination" body part system.
12:18:27 ER: okay. I'll see about finishing it up.
12:18:29 syv: I love all kinds of tactical games, and it may give me idea/motivate me to finish one of my own.
12:20:45 ER: The system does kinda demand player input more often than "once-per-round" sometimes, so it probably shouldn't be a very richly detailed wordsmithing masterpiece to keep things moving. :P
12:21:32 syv: It'll be fun either way, I bet.
12:21:40 ER: yeah I'm not sure if it's possible either~
12:31:11 ER: what I'm keeping from a certain version of my Oroboropolis is extracting grey clay from demon corpses which you can then use to meld a demon limb onto the stump where a demon cut your arm off.
12:35:05 ER: Is it strange that I have 5 stats and 7 skills? asymetry like that bothers be sometimes. >_>
12:35:29 ER: probably will want to add more skills anyway.
12:35:49 Devastator: it's the best number.
12:37:14 syv: Fewer numbers are easier to balance. You especially want few stats, as stats tend to be used without player control, and all are necessary.
12:37:25 ER: should you be able to use Clay to upgrade stats and skills directly, or should that sort of thing come exclusively from demonic mutation and modifications like that?
12:37:34 syv: Skills are more okay to have a ton of, and tend to be more about deliberate usage.
12:38:27 syv: If you have it so clay works as XP which either straight improves them, or can be used to buy an item (attack a limb), it'll be mostly used in the XP role.
12:38:28 ER: stats are always something that determines something that you gain/lose, like HP, which skills are always something you roll
12:39:30 ER: Would it be okay if Clay can be a currency, then?
12:40:16 syv: Would make some sense in unicerse, actually
12:40:31 ER: That seems better. No mashing 5 clay into your face to become more focused, but if you meet someone with a nice gun maybe you can barter.
12:41:14 syv: Yeah. Souls are literally DaS' XP.
12:41:18 ER: because you can mash one into a wound to heal up.
12:41:57 ER: I always think of souls as currency more than as XP...
12:42:58 syv: Generally in a run you spend much more on leveling than on buying, least in the first. Farming souls tends to be for use as a currency, but general gain works more as XP.
12:43:25 ER: i'd rather drop a stack of souls on buying something than on leveling most of the time. Levels make father levels cost more, can't be respecced, and in theory make you end up fighting stronger PvP characters
12:45:11 syv: On the other hand, levels more directly affect success most of the time, if you know what you're doing respeccing isn't needed, and PvP is far more reliant on skill than statistics.
12:45:45 syv: Weapon quality is the most important thing, and can be bought, but most of the time it's either impossible or already done.
12:49:15 ER: weapon quality... hmm... okay lets not think about that actually
12:49:50 ER: in fact maybe let's go the opposite direction and consider weapon durability...
12:51:40 ER: I really don't want to roll weapon durability every single time that a smg fires.
12:53:17 syv: Alternatively, give weapons failure stats, and preroll them before each mission. If you get a failure, write it down and have it break at some point.
12:54:00 ER: Huh. Mission. Hadn't thought about mission structure or anything yet. :V
12:54:44 ER: Was a little more like "wander around and get shot at"
12:54:45 syv: It could be based on engagement, or session, or any other regular time period.
12:55:25 ER: or I roll how many shots it's got in it when the weapon's created and then count up to that~
12:56:02 syv: Per battle? Have the failure system be d20 roll under. A fairly unreliable gun would be, like 5, so 20% failure chance per fight. An AK would be 1 or 2, so basically never fails. A shoddy piece of junk would be 11 or so.
12:56:46 syv: Heh. Make an autoroller that has failure chance in fractions of a percent, then tell it to roll for every bullet. Write down which bullets will jam. ;P
12:57:17 syv: I might do that for the CQB game, actually.
12:58:15 ER: that's kinda interesting, but maybe too much effort for something we really could "just eyeball" :P
12:59:20 syv: Simply ignoring it or having per [intervel] failures would be simpler and likely better. Having failures be GM timed, but determined by stats, gives you a way to throw players a curveball, but ALSO a way for players to defend themselves from it.
12:59:54 syv: If failures are truly random, they could easily be timed in a very unpleasant or unfair way.
13:01:28 ER: if it's GM determined, you can make sure their gun jams just as they're trying to execute someone, leading the capitve to lunge for a knife...
13:02:52 syv: Just be sure to mention that failures work in this way.
13:03:19 syv: "If you use an unreliable gun, it WILL end up failing you at the worst possible time."
13:03:27 ER: what failures I'm pretty sure no failures exist in this system~
13:04:06 syv:
Dev might insist such. Only time can tell.
13:04:41 Devastator: not necessary in a tactical game.
13:04:44 ER: Unreliable: due to the nature of cobbled-together tech and the fact that hell hates you, it ALWAYS fails at the worst possible moment.
13:06:08 syv: I'm like 100% sure you've complained about reliable things being in XCOM.
13:06:48 syv: I guess XCOM isn't a tactical game, in your opinion.
13:06:52 ER: why do rockets roll for scatter but grenades don't? XCOM magic
13:07:37 syv: But rockets don't roll for scatter in the base game? Wasn't that only added in Long War?
13:07:52 ER: thin man poison spit is always perfectly accurate somehow
13:08:00 ER: why do they even carry guns
13:08:10 syv: Basically all AoEs are perfect in the base game, IIRC.
13:08:35 syv: Because their guns have accuracy bonuses and are basically instakills if they flank your dudes.
13:09:00 ER: in the base game rockets will pop up like a 90% to-hit chance while free aiming them, and they have a 10% chance to veer off randomly.
13:09:00 syv: And their poison kinda sucks in the base game if you have medics, or armor.
13:09:11 ER: It's kind of weird and redundant.
13:09:14 syv: Ohhh. Yeah, okay, I remember that.
13:09:44 ER: but I guess that rocket misses causing friendly fire was an important enough part of X-Com that they wanted to have some form of it
13:10:02 syv: I mostly only used heavies for constant suppression, and ignored rockets more or less.
13:10:46 ER: On the bright side, I'm pretty sure that it's the only reason rockets have scatter in LW, which is a pretty cool mechanic
13:11:27 syv: Eh. It made them painfully unreliable.
13:12:04 syv: "Oh, yes, I have this awesome single use item... which has a fifty percent chance of killing half of an enemy pod. Yaaaay."
13:12:22 ER: You CAN carry lots of them in LW
13:12:28 syv: And god, Long War would throw like fifteen pods at you in some missions.
13:12:36 ER: and steady aim makes them fairly reliable
13:12:56 syv: If they weren't useful early on, I didn't use a class. :P
13:13:06 ER: and they do lots of damage in an aoe, so that setup is actually worth it :P
13:13:33 syv: Snipers, Scouts, and Engineers were better.
13:14:25 syv: One engineer could destroy a LOT of cover, a good scout could just wreck an entire pod--repeatedly--and snipers just steadily wore down enemies continually.
13:14:26 ER: Beagle's been playing a modded version of LW that's even harder to the point of being basically impossible to beat, and leaning on tons of rockets early on got him pretty far. So I believe in them.
13:14:42 syv: Plus infantry as tanks, and gunners to lock enemies down.
13:15:01 syv: Of course Beagle plays by explosives span.
13:15:32 syv: I bet he'll spend a rocket killing a single sectoid in cover, rather than shooting or flanking it.
13:19:16 ER: don't yellow pikin die in water?
13:19:36 syv: All except blue, pretty sure.
13:19:52 syv: but that's not enough water to kill one.
13:20:11 syv: They can easily struggle through a good bit of water without drowning.
13:20:13 ER: look, it's totally submerged!
13:21:04 syv: Also, maybe being swole gives them the ability to swim.
13:21:11 ER: I thought it was more like they get smothered by the water than drowned
13:21:37 ER: being submerged wouldn't be good for their electric force whatsits, I'd think
13:21:41 syv: Uhh. I haven't played for a loooong time, but I think the blues survived because they had gills...
13:22:35 syv: "Besides coloration, these Pikmin are distinguishable from other Pikmin species by their pink mouths, a trait seen in no other Pikmin species. These mouths are used to take in water, which filters oxygen through the gills located on their cheeks. This gives them the astonishing ability to breathe both underwater and on dry land."
13:23:59 ER: oh well, guess I'm destroyed by facts and logic
13:32:57 ER: I like this mechanic, but it might be kinda unnessesary. You can split your movement up between multiple actions on your turn, like if you wanted to move up to one enemy, melee it, then move back out of range. But the second and on times you move, you need to beat a Poise skill check. If you succeed you can move, while if you fail your turn ends right there.
13:34:02 ER: oh man, i've written "you" a lot of times in this document.
13:35:35 ER: 13 times in the bit explaining corruption alone :V
13:39:03 syv: Sounds interesting, but complex. Is more poise helpful or harmful? I.E. does plate armor mean more or less freedom of movement?
13:40:13 ER: Poise is just a skill and unaffected by equipment. :V
13:40:42 ER: just seemed like to best word for keeping your footing while moving around.
13:42:46 ER: Plate armor just decreases the number of things that can deal lethal damage to you, basically. Armor means you won't die if you're shot by pistol rounds, but they can still cause pain until you fall unconsious.
13:50:29 ER: it sounds a little weird that plate protects you from pistol rounds as well as kevlar would, but I don't want to have different armor values for melee and bullets
14:00:26 syv: Plate armor is actually really good against bullets.
14:00:36 syv: It's just much heavier than kevlar.
14:01:20 syv: Hell, kevlar isn't even all that useful against AP rounds, which is why literal plates of armor are *still* used for those.
14:01:54 ER: Attacking in melee has risk-reward built in. You can melee attack as many times as you like, but each attack gives a -1 penalty and if you roll 8 or lower your turn and ends and the enemy gets a bonus to hit you.
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14:31:39 ER: yeah with this system if you ever found a ranged weapon with unlimited ammo you would automatically win every fight.
14:35:06 ER: explodes after a few seconds if you spam the trigger ;P
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16:17:55 Devastator: I'm wondering if there are different titles for promotions/demotions.
16:19:40 Piecewise_: Security Officer 2: Electric Bogaloo
16:26:49 Devastator: Security Officer. Security Officer, Second Class.
16:29:06 Devastator: The janitor sounds like a hard job.
16:29:46 Devastator: in-mission casulties making things harder.
16:32:31 Devastator: Yeah, Viscera Cleanup Detail is still a thing.
16:42:12 Devastator: "Sanitation Trooper."
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21:32:02 Radio_Controlled: Good evening moonshiners.
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