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03:01:26 MJ: Eh, about the same as usual
03:04:04 MJ: mmm, what kind of symptoms?
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03:52:30 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
03:52:30 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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04:36:46 Devastator: 'pokémon that were formerly overpowered, but got out powercreeped?'
04:39:49 syv: I got called into work because the usual Fri nightshift guy's car broke down
04:40:05 syv: Luckily I was awake anyway
04:40:32 syv: Would've sucked if I was awake until six doing errands and such
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04:42:46 syv: I would ask if you want to do anything but it's 0042
04:44:03 Egan: meh, I'll stay awake a little longer
04:44:19 syv: I am free to play game and murder enemy
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04:47:29 Devastator: this is more like a spiral off an off-ramp.
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04:49:05 syv: You're serving your master well
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05:41:39 Egan:
syv, did I tell you about the FMD system I was thinking of last time I was kinda working on it?
05:42:17 syv: I don't know when the last time was
05:42:40 Egan: I sent you a charsheet I think
05:46:24 syv: I vaugely recall this, yes
05:46:39 syv: Separately, are you up for playing Valheim?
05:47:20 Egan: wellll, there are five mundane stats and five magic stats, when you roll a success you get an xp in that stat, if you get five xp or something then you can gain a perk associated with a mundane stat or a new power or power upgrade from a magic stat
05:50:42 Egan: which means that you get upgrades at least thematically related to things that you roll more often, and things you have skill in, because more successes
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05:51:45 syv: I don't really see the appeal,
Egan.
05:53:19 syv: Gaining skill based on what you do when you have screentime messes with the logic of the setting. What about what you do when offscreen? Do people train? What about powergamers; can someone become OP by spamming fireballs at a tree? Will rarely-used builds naturally progress much worse than blaster builds?
05:54:06 syv: A regular levelup system is more balanced, more coherent, and broadly easier to design and use.
05:56:30 syv: If the system is like PS, with a limited mana bar, and level-by-use only applies to magic, then it's better justified. Any roll has a cost, so you still have to try and be efficient with them. But this also goes in the exact opposite direction of the purpose of PS' design; it encourages snowballing and specialization, rather than diversity and cleverness. It incentivizes making yourself into a really good hammer.
05:58:03 syv: It'd also work well with some kind of Evangelion-like justification, where players only have access to their powers for a very limited span of time, which also happens to be the period of time where you REALLY have to be trying to kill the enemy. But it still incentivizes the worst kind of powergaming: minmaxing.
05:59:03 syv: It doesn't really strike me as actually adding anything to a game in practice, aside from the vauge desire to see people using the skills they advance (which organically happens if players are competent, anyways), and it has very deleterious effects on the game itself.
06:06:45 Devastator: My first thought is to reverse it. You level up when you fail. ;-p
06:06:52 Devastator: but yes, I agree with
syv's thoughts.
06:07:09 syv: That actually fixes a lot of the problems x.x
06:07:31 syv: Evangelion game where failure levels you up
06:10:41 Egan: but then having higher skill in something doesn't even help you level up faster >:(
06:11:42 syv: Why would you possibly want that?
06:12:00 syv: That's the opposite of how reality works -and- the opposite of fun game design
06:14:47 Egan: to incentivise actually being good at the skills for the things you want to do a lot?
06:14:57 Devastator: Yes, that lets you succeed and actually do things.
06:16:25 syv: Most games have *too much* of that incentive.
06:16:44 syv: It's why overspecialization is so common and often the meta.
06:17:42 syv: But overspecialization is anti-fun unless you're controlling many separate overspecialized characters (which itself means the player isn't overspecialized), because it means you're doing the same repetitive thing more often.
06:18:15 Devastator: some people like that, though.
06:18:25 syv: If you have one godstat which is amazing and nineteen cursed stats that are likely to kill you if you try them... every encounter is going to be the same.
06:18:53 syv: The difficulty isn't in encouraging that situation. It already organically occurs very often, if you're not specifically trying to avoid it.
06:19:02 syv: The difficulty is to make it feasible to *not* do that.
06:19:42 syv: The most interesting choices are when you have a few great stats, some good ones, some alright ones, and some bad ones.
06:19:55 syv: Some encounters will suit your great stats perfectly, and you can feel awesome
06:20:25 syv: Some of them will be exactly opposed to you, and you'll have to figure out how to leverage your poorer stats effectively, which can be a fun puzzle.
06:20:45 Egan: I think I was thinking that magic might not be rolled for often enough, meaning there's no reason to care about those stats. giving faster growth for having a high stat at least gives you a reason to make a build
06:20:46 syv: Some of them will be more neutral, and best solved with secondary stats, giving you a change of pace.
06:21:10 Devastator: You could just make it easier to level that stat, then.
06:21:25 syv: Or if you want to encourage builds, make a class system or something.
06:22:29 syv: Do you want to play Valheim tonight yes/no?
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06:27:00 Devastator: I also suspect there won't be much issue finding players to do 'magic'.
06:27:07 Devastator: I mean, magic is a bad idea in Quest, didn't stop Leng.
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22:35:29 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
22:35:29 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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23:43:38 Devastator: untrained swordscats sound good.
23:45:00 Egan: so I bet you'll find this 'funny'
23:45:13 Egan: new game dragon's dogma 2 has a like 3 dollar dlc
23:45:23 Egan: to have the ability to remake your character
23:45:45 Egan: unless you buy that there's no way to reset or make a different character after you've
started
23:48:10 Devastator: ..you can't clear your save?
23:48:24 Egan: it's stored on their servers!
23:51:01 Devastator: wow, that's bullshit.
23:51:28 Egan: yeah, that game seems like the most bullshit yet
23:51:51 Egan: in terms of microtransactions for things that REALLY SHOULDN'T BE
23:52:16 Egan: such as paying to buy the fast travel item
23:52:58 Devastator: ..wasn't Dragon's Dogma a pretty good game?
23:53:02 Devastator: did someone buy the IP?
23:53:38 Egan: same old publisher I think
23:53:57 Egan: they just decided this was the game to push the envelope on bullshit
23:55:42 Devastator: what the hell, then?
23:58:06 Egan: maybe the pirated version of DD2 will be fun since you don't have to buy basic features
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