02:46:22 parisbre56[Away] has joined #einsteinianroulette
02:46:22 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
02:46:22 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
04:38:21 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
04:46:32 Devastator: I'll do Extinction in a bit.
04:46:38 Devastator: flowing water doesn't stack, it's like entangle.
04:47:35 Devastator: it'll wear off after two misses.
04:47:46 syv: I figured it was like double team. Sad.
04:48:02 Devastator: No, there's no evasion modifiers available to players or bosses.
04:48:16 syv: Absorbing two misses is pretty weak, unless they're guaranteed.
04:48:28 syv: Absorbing only two attacks via misses*
04:59:50 Devastator: they are guaranteed.
04:59:56 Devastator: it doesn't wear off until it's absorbed two misses.
05:00:27 Devastator: that said, it isn't guaranteed to absorb any hits.
05:00:58 Devastator: getting hit doesn't count as a miss.
05:01:08 Devastator: it will make two misses. Eventually.
05:01:11 syv: Oh. Yeah, that was expected.
05:01:27 syv: That's what I called pretty weak.
05:01:30 Devastator: yeah, if it was a miss chance for X attacks it'd last longer than two.
05:01:49 Devastator: it's pretty weak unless you're dealing with big hits.
05:01:54 syv: If you're outnumbered in attack count by 2-to-1 it's just poor. Trades one action for an equivalent amount of actions... in the future. If you outnumber the enemy (so against this boss) it's better. Lose one action, enemy loses actions in the future. Depends on how reliable it is; if it dodges the next two hits that is good, if it's like 33% miss chance then it's blah.
05:01:58 Devastator: but that's ok, because water is pretty badass.
05:02:32 Devastator: also when you're dealing with broken monsters like this one.
05:02:58 Devastator: This fish isn't natural. The second modifier means it has gear.
05:03:02 Devastator: it's equipped with stuff.
05:04:02 syv: No I want the skinny on dodge probability :X
05:04:45 Devastator: 50% until the first one, 30% until the second one.
05:05:36 Devastator: I'm tempted to make the move more effective underwater, but I'm not tweaking stuff until after the battle.
05:06:09 syv: Not tweaking the never-before-used move with mysterious mechanics until after we use it~?
05:07:27 Devastator: you have actually used it before.
05:08:28 syv: 50% chance of Trence being targeted. 50% chance of him dodging. 25% chance of utility per round. Fish attacks twice, and assuming it can double hit, that's 75% * 75%, or ~44% of it doing something. Guaranteed eventually.
05:09:03 Devastator: well, 100%. The actual fish attack is only going for Trence because he looks like a meal.
05:09:36 syv: Actual effect is good here though, since it's discarding 25% of our round actions (and a low value action too) for 50-100% of the fish's round actions.
05:10:00 Devastator: yeah, it's a sound move.
05:10:02 syv: When did we use it before?
05:14:53 syv: Back then we dodged the first attack directed at us, then got hit three times by a group of four, and three times by a group of two.
05:20:24 Devastator: Yes. Since you were trying to evade they had to roll to see if they'd get any attacks at all.
05:20:34 Devastator: I just figured that would be the way.
05:31:09 Devastator: but yeah, fish has equipment.
05:37:03 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:17:26 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
06:18:32 syv: Why does "holochroal" mean it has equipment?
06:24:37 Devastator: because someone wore that equipment and it's projected onto the fish monster.
06:26:26 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:40:50 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
06:42:43 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:55:27 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
07:09:08 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:20:29 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
07:20:31 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:21:49 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
07:28:31 Devastator: still bouncing too much?
07:58:51 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:04:11 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
08:16:45 Devastator: was watching some boardgamers play various boardgames.
08:16:49 Devastator: looks like some interesting games.
08:17:10 Devastator: also, "Social Deduction Games" means "Scum Wins". Every single round of every game they've played has had that been true.
08:19:31 Devastator: I mean, there's fun to be had, but.. you know what's gonna happen before you start watching.
08:24:25 syv: Mm. I haven't really played any of those.
08:24:44 syv: Is that just because they're all competent boardgamers, and it's always scum's game to lose?
08:25:12 syv: That's generally what I expect from those.
08:26:07 Devastator: it's really that all of them, every last time, has rules heavily favoring scum.
08:27:19 Devastator: "You have seven players, each with two cards. You know what you have, but not what order your cards are in, they're shuffled.
08:27:29 Devastator: among those 14 cards is one Cthulu and six elder signs.
08:27:56 Devastator: You reveal one card at a time, from the investigator, who picks a player and reveals one of their two cards.
08:28:10 Devastator: The chosen player is the new investigator.
08:28:30 Devastator: For a not-scum win, all six elder signs need to be investigated and Cthulu can never be chosen."
08:28:53 Devastator: Even in a game where the scum players don't know each other, that's nigh-unwinnable.
08:32:02 syv: Why do they only play badly designed SD games?
08:32:15 Devastator: They're all like that!
08:32:27 Devastator: Every single one is designed for nearly guaranteed scum victories.
08:32:58 syv: Okay. Why aren't social deduction games ever designed to be fair?
08:33:47 syv: "Literally everyone who does [task] is stupid"
08:34:02 syv: "I've only seen cases where they were stupid."
08:34:14 syv: "...Okay, but why generalize to everyone?"
08:35:48 Devastator: I don't know why it's like that.
08:36:32 Devastator: but you look at a couple dozen of them, and it's..
08:36:42 Devastator: "social deduction game, scum will win."
08:37:15 Devastator: Sometimes it's because the ruleset requires perfect play for not-scum to win.
08:37:26 Devastator: other times it's just designed to screw things over.
08:37:36 Devastator: I think it's because scum gets the instant-win conditions.
08:37:48 Devastator: so it's just going to be much easier to design ones that way.
08:37:57 syv: Dark Souls is the best social deduction game.
08:39:34 Devastator: that last one was particularly obvious, though. I mean.. if a friendly has an elder sign and cthulu, that's a 50% win rate even if nobody is scum.
08:40:33 Devastator: and since there are literally 7 safe cards and 6 elder signs, well..
08:40:45 Devastator: ..you get the two paired up 6/13 rounds.
08:42:00 syv: People are bad at statistics.
08:42:36 Devastator: it'd be much more viable if you needed to find 'all but one' marker.
08:42:56 Devastator: then someone actually needs to lie to put you in the 50-50 situation.
08:43:53 Devastator: game designers can do math well enough to figure that out, though.
08:45:59 Devastator: They did play one competitive asymmetric game that didn't involve social deduction, where three investigators had to track down Jack the Ripper, who was a fourth player. Looked like the rules favored the investigators, but not heavily.
08:46:13 Devastator: if they screwed up a couple times they'd lose, but they have all the stuff they need to win.
08:46:28 Devastator: and that was imbalanced, but in a way that lead to really fun games.
08:48:32 Devastator: it also provided a good way to measure how close the ripper came to winning, so you could switch players and compare outcomes with each other.
08:49:27 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:55:16 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
08:56:08 syv: Dark Sus is imbalanced, but it's random who is favored. And it's imbalanced in a way that leads to really fun games.
08:58:48 syv: Hard to compare outcomes though. Could judge how close innocents got to the boss/how many died/how much HP they had, but due to the number of areas and random items, results aren't very comparable.
10:26:28 parisbre56[Away] has joined #einsteinianroulette
10:26:28 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
10:26:28 Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
11:00:52 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:09:16 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
11:10:05 syv has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:25:28 Devastator has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:56:04 Devastator has joined #einsteinianroulette
Log file '2023-08-05.log' ends.
16331 bytes processed.