00:53:57 Piecewise has joined #einsteinianroulette
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03:11:31 syv:
Piecewise, did you want me?
03:11:54 syv: I usually don't come on here for a couple more hours, it's morning for me
03:26:46 Piecewise: Are you one of those people who don't get up at 3am?
03:27:14 syv: I get up at nine or ten PM.
03:28:34 Piecewise: Oh was just gonna run a modified RTD for COE by you
03:29:28 syv: I gotta leave for work in a half hour, but I'll happily look over it
03:30:12 syv: Well that looks kinda painful to run
03:30:34 Piecewise: Nah, its just RTD with a widening window
03:30:49 Piecewise: Same as Mook but a bit more balanced
03:31:10 syv: For d4, I like how MOOK has 4 turn into an overshot. Minor success often feels like "boring failure", which overshot is always exciting, success or fail.
03:31:57 syv: Otherwise... hmm. I think I'd have more failure chance on the higher die sizes, to make them less safe, and maybe less minor successes. I have a general negative feeling towards them.
03:32:22 syv: Or is that "great" success?
03:33:43 Piecewise: Yeah this is set up to be a bit less wacky than standard RTD
03:34:41 syv: Seems reasonable to me? 15% chance of failure at max level is pretty reasonable, really. It's a LOT of steps to get there.
03:35:25 syv: It does feel overly safe... but it functionally gives diminishing returns, so someone has to *choose* to get to overly safe levels.
03:35:48 syv: Would there be stuff you really *need* a great success for?
03:36:06 Piecewise: If you're going up against great odds, yeah
03:36:45 Piecewise: I mean if you're wanting to punch the dragon, just succeeding won't do much
03:37:58 Piecewise: The alternative is a DC to roll against
03:38:04 syv: Seems sound then. Gives a reward for higher stat levels.
03:38:59 Piecewise: I'm combining this with a stat system and two "pools", HP and SP. Hp is HP, SP is used to fuel special stuff
03:39:16 Piecewise: They're determined by combinations of stats
03:39:49 Piecewise: and I have a set up for leveling up stats based on use instead of static level ups
03:39:49 syv: I miiiight suggest a higher rate of great success? Maybe 30 or 35% at D20? Mostly so the inevitable Egan punchgirl with d20 strength has good odds of succeeding with the crazy feats. But I dunno. I can see going in either direction.
03:40:46 Piecewise: The basic idea being that you record the results of every roll for a stat and once the total goes over a certain number you can level it up
03:41:05 Piecewise: so good rolls are more "XP"while even bad ones give a bit.
03:41:13 syv: That sounds bookkeeping heavy
03:41:40 Piecewise: I just assumed players could keep a number next to their stats and add to it as they go
03:41:56 Piecewise: but if that seems too annoying, I can think of other ways
03:42:25 Piecewise: I don't expect them to keep track of every roll, just the total over time.
03:43:14 syv: Ehhhh, maybe? I wouldn't mind myself, but it'd A) require you to very clearly list stats used whenever they're used, because ambiguity, and B) would probably confuse some people and just plain get forgotten a lot.
03:43:39 syv: I tend to write posts hours or a day after I read the turn, because I always think awhile. And I don't edit my sheet until then.
03:44:41 syv: Might work out, but yeah, I'd keep a backup system ready. :P
03:45:04 Piecewise: I would like to have a way to level up through use since the game won't have a standard "mission" structure
03:45:37 Piecewise: I suppose basic "XP" for actions or kills leading to level up works too
03:45:59 syv: It would reduce the stat focusing that's so common in Mook, which'd be nice.
03:46:25 syv: Maybe try it, and if it's too complex, gradually simplify it over time, rather than abandoning the concept?
03:48:10 Piecewise: I'll leave it as is for the test and get feedback
03:48:57 Piecewise: It works well with another aspect that I haven't talked about~
03:49:24 syv: I look forward to the test. ^-^
03:49:52 syv: Sounds like it'll be something very new and interesting, and that means it'll be fun to try and break~
03:50:05 Piecewise: Alright, thats all, sorry for waking you up
03:50:29 syv: Nah, I was up. Just normally wouldn't be in here. No worries.
03:51:30 syv: I'll be back in about an hour or so.
03:56:26 Piecewise: I go to bed about then so probably only be around for a bit
04:01:32 Devastator: also I'm socially anxious enough to shoot myself over that dumb PM.
04:04:42 Devastator: sorry for the dumb PM.
04:05:36 Devastator: I do feel 8k for free is kinda wrong, but that's not the way to handle it.
04:05:58 Piecewise: *shrug* I've always been bad at balance so its probably op
04:07:07 Piecewise: This is why I'm considering an inheritance system and "Baseline" level in future games. Especially games not focused on characters being disposable
04:07:46 Devastator: nah, more important when characters are disposable.
04:07:56 Devastator: if they're not disposable, who cares about inheritance?
04:09:35 Devastator: Baselines so people can join in later on is important either way, but keeping stuff..
04:10:05 Devastator: then again, if you keep your stuff after dying, you no longer have a game with disposable stuff.
04:10:52 Devastator: VR system is 50 omni, right?
04:11:13 Devastator: you could embrace disposability all the way.
04:11:30 Devastator: Your body and gear set is all disposable, and only lasts the one mission.
04:11:43 Devastator: You get a budget for each mission, which is spend it or waste it.
04:11:54 Devastator: but that's per player, so each player buys their character next round.
04:13:39 Devastator: maybe you 'level up', and get like a 100 buck budget increase, say from 1500 to 1600 and then on.
04:13:47 Piecewise: Or we go the MO way where its RTD forever with no levels
04:13:51 Devastator: That way things won't escalate beyond your limits.
04:13:55 Devastator: Yeah, that's another option.
04:14:31 Devastator: I mean, I think the only character where I really tried to get strong was Saeko.
04:14:48 Devastator: Dunno if people will go for that, though.
04:16:36 Devastator: also, I don't know if I ever told you why I have issues trusting GMs,
Piecewise.
04:16:52 Devastator: did I ever tell you about the browser-based space game I used to play?
04:21:22 Devastator: it turned out the other group we were in a PvP war against was secretly GM-backed.
04:21:24 Piecewise: Did some jerk keep you in prison for real life years?
04:21:39 Devastator: having them read your private messages and tip off your opponents when you're attacking was pretty big.
04:22:00 Devastator: (That was me,
PW. I know you would have let me out had I asked for it.)
04:22:18 Piecewise: Yeah I'm joking around
04:22:36 Devastator: also, they bodged up a hack on their defensive structures to remove the cost for repairing it, making it nigh-invincible until we killed all their ships first.
04:22:52 Devastator: when the building blew anyway, something like 40 people had their ships stuck in limbo until it was fixed.
04:23:31 Devastator: ..after they fixed it, they had one of their secret accounts kill all the attackers who were stuck on that square, so they had to pay the death penalty.
04:23:38 Devastator: They were pretty damn shitty.
04:24:05 Devastator: anyway, they ended up banning the lot of us during the next time we went to war.
04:24:07 Piecewise: sounds like a very us vs them mentality they head
04:24:11 Devastator: seemed they were backing those guys too.
04:24:45 Devastator: turned out the recently-buffed building defenses weren't to be used to lock their buddies out of most of space.
04:25:19 Devastator: so they banned the guy owning those structures, which removed them. Supposedly for badmouthing them in chat. Guy was polish, and didn't use chat because he barely could type english.
04:26:00 Devastator: anyway, within 24 hours we had them back up with a different person, so they banned our entire alliance for causing too much trouble. Except not even our entire alliance.. just about 75% of it, everyone who owned a structure in what was basically our base.
04:26:29 Devastator: I mean, it was just stupid stuff from them.
04:26:48 Devastator: they didn't like what we were doing to their game.
04:27:27 Devastator: ..which was particularly odd because what we were doing was saying stuff like 'no internal blockades, they just screw over newbies'
04:27:36 Piecewise: I suppose, but there are better ways to handle that. And playing favorites with players is shitty
04:27:58 Devastator: I mean.. it was beta, and the whole game was going to be relaunched at some point in the future.
04:28:05 Piecewise: Its possible they weren't aware of their bias
04:28:30 Piecewise: Well. maybe not fully
04:28:49 Devastator: but it's pretty damn clear when you rewrite the map so the guys you backed in the last war picked a much more viable sector to set up their new base in..
04:29:22 Devastator: but yeah, most of the stuff nobody cared about. It was an experimental game, and stuff was going to happen.
04:29:41 Devastator: even things like buffing a side or handing out bonuses to encourage behavior you want to test, we could live with.
04:30:00 Devastator: It's that they lied about it and were so dumb about it.
04:31:12 Devastator: I mean.. they didn't even have to do stuff like read messages. Could have done things like "Hey, chatter is you're going to make a big attack. Can you let us know when it is so we can watch it go down?"
04:31:26 Piecewise: Well, at the very least my games are PVE so I can't be giving away your plans to myself
04:32:53 Devastator: you're betten than they were.
04:33:01 Devastator: but I think I'll always have one eye on the GMs.
04:33:19 Devastator: even when they deserve my trust.
04:34:50 Devastator: ugh, I also forgot about how they would introduce new monsters only as far away from where we were set up as possible, to force our fighters to travel days away from our base to be able to continue working on their skills.
04:35:16 Devastator: that might have been by accident, but ugh, I'll never know..
04:36:13 Devastator: anyway, enough about them.
04:38:20 Devastator: oh, VR systems are only 15.
04:58:20 Piecewise: Omni Quest 6 now only 15 Omni
04:59:22 Devastator: as much as the system, eh?
05:00:19 Devastator: Is it suitable to be hacked into like a robot interface? Like if you get an extra antenna and get someone to program the software?
05:00:46 Devastator: I figure a VR interface would be good for using a scout.
05:01:18 Piecewise: Yeah, that could work
05:01:41 Devastator: aight. don't think I'll do that now, d4 tech shouldn't work, but maybe I can speechify someone into setting that up.
05:01:50 Devastator: or speechify to find someone to program that.
05:03:28 Devastator: I'll just buy the parts and look around.
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05:06:43 syv: Whatever happened to "heya"?
05:06:54 Devastator: congrats on the level 16 body.
05:08:35 Devastator: yeah, mook updated and you get a free body with 16 upgrades. ;-p
05:09:24 syv: That's quite something, yeah.
05:09:43 syv: Didn't get a description for its appearance though, just some clone
05:10:00 Devastator: Yeah, well.. that's how these things go.
05:10:51 Piecewise: What ever you do make sure not t-
05:11:13 Devastator: ugh, gotta be hard on
PW.
05:11:21 Devastator: but gah, the man can not balance stuff.
05:11:40 Devastator: be a vet = get showered with huge quantities of free shit.
05:15:35 syv: Ehhh, not quite. Try things, get things.
05:15:51 syv: Vets have more freedom to try things, and fewer reasons not to.
05:16:46 syv: This body, amusingly, also negates my OP promotion to a degree.
05:17:03 syv: I can't use a revive unless I die. Dying with this body loses it.
05:17:04 Devastator: it's something that's utterly impossible for anyone else to try.
05:17:17 Devastator: you can also store it for 1k and never have to make that roll again.
05:17:29 syv: True. I don't think I will.
05:17:33 Devastator: what is unfair is to call it level 16 when you can buy straight d8 robobodies.
05:17:48 Devastator: so it's basically 'one free d8 robobody'
05:17:56 Devastator: besides, revives are only 300 bucks each.
05:21:08 syv: It's *definitely* better than a d8 robobody
05:21:22 syv: I guess it can bleed, which is a demerit, but having a d12 is significant
05:21:47 syv: And revives being cheap just makes my promotion sound less OP :v
05:21:56 syv: "+300 pay on any mission where I die"
05:23:57 Devastator: I don't even think you guys actually pay the 300!
05:24:20 Devastator: ie, you buy the 300, and don't rebuy it after death.
05:24:36 syv: I mean, I have done so every death.
05:24:58 syv: I'd consider that cheating, and yeah, people can cheat.
05:27:40 Devastator: what I'm gonna use speech for is stuff like what you did that turn.
05:27:48 Devastator: find the places, develop the contacts, talk people into doing things.
05:27:57 Devastator: to give me access to the stuff that you normally have to be a vet to get to do for free.
05:28:17 Devastator: the downside is I'll have to do it before I need it.
05:28:31 Devastator: anyway, it isn't fatal, I just...
05:28:44 Devastator: I really don't feel good doing stuff like that unless I've done groundwork first.
05:30:39 Devastator: you sure he wouldn't do that? ;-p
05:30:45 Devastator: anyway, it's just higher stakes.
05:30:55 Devastator: he gave me squirrelbots at about 1/4 the price I was expecting.
05:34:48 syv: Good luck killing anything with those
05:35:19 syv: From the description is sounds like a flesh and blood squirrel would have good odds of winning a fight
05:39:45 Devastator: I won't be killing anything with it.
05:40:24 Devastator: I will be buying a can of paint and blinding something with it.
05:43:59 Devastator: no, I don't think I need to worry about killing anything.
05:44:14 Devastator: the game's full of people with too many guns and too many stats to worry about that.
05:45:58 syv: Yeah, absolutely. I just thought the knifesquirrel plan was about murder.
05:46:55 Devastator: what I'm also going to do is to put a set of stats out to establish a framework for producing small robot creatures.
05:47:04 Devastator: ..which will also prevent anyone else from abusing them. ;-p
05:47:28 Devastator: and knifesquirrel plan can totally murder.
05:47:36 Devastator: get someone to program in like d8 melee.
05:47:45 Devastator: allow them to pool their damage die into one big number.
05:47:52 Devastator: hit someone with 24d2 damage.
05:48:14 syv: That would be exploiting Dubs, IMO
05:48:22 Devastator: Yeah, well.. everyone does it.
05:48:43 Devastator: so I want to do it to shiv someone with a rabbit.
05:50:29 syv: No, I mean, that's exploiting his weaknesses in the same way classic Tinker did.
05:50:45 Devastator: Yeah, well.. everyone does it.
05:50:52 syv: So far in Mook people have been conteny exploiting what he put in the armory of his own accord, as well as asking for stuff.
05:51:27 Devastator: but nah, I don't mean to make it a side thing. I have to do everything between missions, so I get like two turns to do stuff a round.
05:51:39 Devastator: so I have to be efficient, compact, and limited.
05:53:56 Devastator: 'people just ask for stuff' is basically what I'm doing.
05:54:26 Devastator: I just want to write rules for
PW, so I can have a bunch of fun robot animals that he doesn't need to worry about balancing.
05:55:39 Devastator: also.. I've never actually done tinker.
05:55:45 syv: Specifically, I was referring to the suggestion of using a d12 skill to turn a 25 cost item into a d8 weapon, and then trying to break the system by merging dice.
05:55:47 Devastator: so it'll be a new experience for you too.
05:56:00 syv: 24d2 would be *by far* the most powerful weapon in the game.
05:56:34 Devastator: and it wouldn't be a 25 cost item.
05:58:24 Devastator: lets caculate it out.
05:58:48 syv: Very simply, 24d2 has a minimum roll of 24.
05:58:51 Devastator: how much would 24d12 cost, if
PW allows it, and if I get the 3 missions or so requied to make it.
05:58:56 syv: The best gun in the game was like 13
05:59:08 Devastator: first off, it isn't autohit.
05:59:34 Devastator: that's what, 60% hits?
06:00:01 syv: That's not how this system works,
Dev.
06:01:21 Devastator: but it's completely useless if I can't add dice with this method. If it'd be broken, lets assume that can be done first, because otherwise it simply cannot be done.. and thus cannot be broken.
06:02:12 syv: Setting up something that lets you roll multiple attacks isn't unreasonable.
06:02:51 syv: If that's your goal you should state that. Since "XdY" already has a meaning in this system, you can't use it to describe multiple attacks.
06:04:07 syv: Also, something can be impossible, but still be accurately described as something that "would be broken".
06:04:21 Devastator: That could be the case.
06:04:28 Devastator: ..except I don't think so, actually.
06:05:57 syv: Would Trence's dragonbreath be broken if it could be used at any time with element selection chosen on cast, cost zero MP, was not tiring, and did double its current damage? Without Willis or Sessha or Alice being any stronger than normal?
06:06:45 Devastator: but nah, it would change the nature of the game, but it's workable.
06:06:56 Devastator: really though, can you let me describe why it isn't that easy,
syv?
06:07:15 Devastator: First off, the most powerful weapons are explosives.
06:07:47 Devastator: Demo packs are 3d10, and there's absolutely no reason you couldn't put one on a spiderbot and ram something.
06:07:56 Devastator: so that's 900 to do one shot of 3d10.
06:08:14 Devastator: assuming a pretty expensive spiderbot. You can get cheaper robots.
06:09:19 Devastator: and it's fair, because I'm describing a situation where I'm attacking things with robots in melee.
06:09:30 Devastator: so I'm comparing it to a situation where I'm attacking things in melee with robots.
06:09:44 syv: I don't believe Dubs has specified what the demo pack is, but I took it as being a satchel charge.
06:10:09 syv: So a spiderbot presumably would be too weak to carry it. A 300 cost basic slavebot could, though.
06:10:30 Devastator: which makes it 600.
06:10:51 Devastator: either do two of those or put two charges on one robot, costing 900 or 1200 for two shots of 3d10 damage.
06:11:08 Devastator: I know that's not 24d2 damage (which is better), but it's within shouting range.
06:12:12 syv: Ahahahaha, wow, I'm reading about a type of US military satchel charge
06:12:13 Devastator: It's also one shot, but so are the squirrels, with critfails and overshoots likely leading to them stabbing each other.
06:12:25 Devastator: anyway, cost of the squirrel.
06:12:50 Devastator: 25 each isn't enough.
PW said they aren't smart, so I'm going to assume they need to be upgraded to be able to use any kind of skill software.
06:12:50 syv: One of the "limitations" this (unofficial) websit lists is "Composition C4 explosives are poisonous and dangerous if chewed or ingested"
06:13:16 syv: Ideally you want your high explosives to be biologically inert, so you can issue them to the marines, I guess.
06:14:01 Devastator: secondly, they're slow, so are going to need upgrading again to be suitable for this sort of thing physically.
06:14:07 Devastator: Thirdly, they don't have shivs built into them.
06:14:19 Devastator: so that's a minimum of three upgrades. Assuming 25 each, that brings the price up to 100.
06:14:25 syv: Also, no, 24d2 is still not within shouting distance
06:14:43 Devastator: 3d10 x2 isn't within shouting distance of 24d2?
06:14:48 syv: Average damage of 3d10 is 16.5. Average damage of 24d2 is 36.
06:15:01 syv: 3d10 is closer to zero damage than to 24d2.
06:15:27 Devastator: in order to land about 24 hits, I need like 30+ squirrels, costing over three grand.
06:15:43 Devastator: so even if their damage stacked, they're too costly to be any kind of efficient.
06:15:58 syv: Okay, again, the system has a meaning for XdY
06:16:35 syv: And no, damage doesn't stack, anyway
06:16:37 Devastator: shut the hell up about it, because I'm not going to actually do it! I'm just trying to give an example of why it's not undercosted.
06:17:16 syv: 100 1d2 attacks would, by RAW, be unable to scratch a 2d4 armor enemy. That's not how Dubs would process it, but it's how the system says it works.
06:18:11 Devastator: I might do one or two, and I might get a ruling that adding another robot adds like +1 damage, which could be broken if I could get several dozen together..
06:18:38 Devastator: but even if I had it stacked, it'd still be a really inefficient way to attack people with robots.
06:20:03 Devastator: and since I'm not going to have an avatar suit, carrying 30 robots onto a mission isn't going to happen, even if there's no encumbrance limits.
06:21:17 Devastator: I'm annoyed about this, because what I want to do this turn is write rules preventing me from being able to abuse cheap small robots.
06:28:51 syv: I find your struggle with this amusing
06:29:41 Devastator: If
PW gives me something it'll be broken to hell and massively undercosted, assuming he doesn't just give me a high-level body for free or a free 8k avatar suit. So I have to write my own damn rules to keep
PW from giving me stuff that would remove any thought to my character build.
06:30:04 syv: I think that last message is incomplete; there's plenty of rules that could prevent you from being able to abuse cheap small robots. Including what you said immediately prior.
06:30:14 syv: You also want something that's fun and useful.
06:30:23 Devastator: hence 'cheap small robots'
06:30:55 syv: It's not that Dubs *only* gives overpowered ridiculous boons that are way too good
06:31:37 syv: It's that he gives senselessly variable stuff, from ridiculously OP god items, to useless pieces of crap that do nothing or kill you
06:31:59 syv: So you want to munchkin enough to escape the latter, while *also* limiting yourself to avoid the former.
06:34:43 Devastator: while providing it in a framework
PW can understand and simplifying it enough to not be a burden, and making sure it's unattractive enough nobody else will try to deal with it.
06:35:37 syv: You figured out how to give yourself a truly difficult challenge in a
PW game
06:36:15 syv: I look forward to you being upset about solving it flawlessly before your first mission~
06:40:42 Devastator: It's easier than I'm suggesting.
06:42:03 syv: Mayhaps, but it's also Dubs you're dealing with.
06:47:09 Devastator: taking a break, but I'll do Quest tonight.
06:47:10 syv checks Extinction, then realizes he's an idiot
06:47:51 syv: No suggestions for Wil's body?
06:58:08 Devastator: extinction's tomorrow.
08:01:48 Devastator: Does Xin have any tracking skills?
08:05:23 Devastator: don't think so. That's base.
08:05:32 GameServ:
Devastator rolled 1d12: 12 <Total: 12>
08:17:59 syv: Yeah, he wouldn't. Maybe tracking death, at most.
08:22:59 syv: Is Xin at a higher elevation than the wounded car?
08:23:14 Devastator: The car also seems pretty close.
08:24:48 Devastator: oh, you can have some of the stuff from the stuff list.
08:24:51 Devastator: lemme get that again.
08:25:08 Devastator: Spare vanilla longsword
08:25:10 Devastator: One good quality suit of Vertical Wolf plate armour.
08:25:11 Devastator: Four large canisters of petrol ~20 gal.
08:25:13 Devastator: One tube of firestarter
08:25:14 Devastator: One can of spray lubricant.
08:25:20 Devastator: ruby Wolf's Head totem, uncharged
08:25:26 Devastator: no wolves down here, and probably not the armour. You have gas, but that's in addition to the ones listed.
08:26:55 syv: Need to charge that totem up.
08:27:07 syv: It'd be funny to turn a car into a wolf.
08:29:05 Devastator: Going to be funny when you're far enough away from the Land of the Wolf that nobody knows what wolves are.
08:29:55 Devastator: do note that by 'wounded creature' I'm assuming you mean the one you haven't seen. The one at the bottom of the shaft is quite dead.
08:29:55 syv: "This item turns you into Rolla"
08:30:07 syv: Though, really, I'd expect that to take quite awhile.
08:30:11 Devastator: man, you don't even know what the other stuff is. ;-p
08:30:27 Devastator: yeah, you need to charge it first, and you don't really know when it's done.
08:30:38 Devastator: you do know it charges when stuff dies near it.
08:30:41 syv: Okay, I significantly misunderstood the creature situatiom/
08:30:44 Devastator: so it seems likely to get charged eventually.
08:31:04 Devastator: one creature is at the bottom of the shaft. It's dead, pieces are broken off.
08:31:18 Devastator: Another creature survived, but apparently left at some point, presumably looking for a way out.
08:31:48 syv: It seems that the totem has an actual *activation* that triggers the transformation? Like, it doesn't just suddenly go off once you've killed enough things.
08:31:52 Devastator: anyway, calling out to the active car is pretty reasonable, as is retreating to the shaft.
08:32:09 Devastator: Yeah, but you know it isn't charged at this time.
08:32:26 Devastator: I'll keep track of the amount of deads that went into it, and you can decide to try and use it whenever.
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12:32:13 syv: I have a vauge low level fear that I am actually Aigreing with this system, and if a good munchkin looked at it they would quickly figure out a jeepswarm-tier tactic
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15:23:29 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Fleshorrors dream of feline BASS
15:23:29 Topic set by syv [Saturday 22 May 2021, 04:44:55]
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