00:41:26 Devastator:
ER and
syv are usually on in the evenings.
01:45:36 Piecewise: Yeah I'm just sticking around in case of question or goings on
01:46:16 Piecewise: You got corona yet by the way? I got it like 3 weeks ago
01:46:38 Piecewise: My sister has it now. Her husband had it months ago
01:47:01 Piecewise: seems like everyone will have it eventually, vaccine or not
01:47:22 Devastator: my brother got it, he didn't get vaccinated.
01:47:27 Devastator: lied to me about it.
01:47:34 Devastator: exposed me to it for a week.
01:47:40 Devastator: never got it, never tested positive.
01:48:01 Piecewise: I'd say chances are you had it but it never took hold
01:48:16 Piecewise: which is good. Extra immunity, no issues
01:48:48 Devastator: I'm not sure you could say that, not much of a margin.
01:49:14 Devastator: I got tested, right when I should have gotten it.
01:49:21 Devastator: I suppose they can do antigen tests.
01:49:28 Piecewise: Sure but false negatives do happen
01:50:32 Piecewise: Not impossible, depending on the test. And also depends on viral load. If you had a really transitory case because of the vaccine it wouldn't show up because you wouldn't have much in your body
01:50:46 Piecewise: Tests have different sensitivities
01:51:03 Devastator: Maybe it just never took hold in the first place.
01:51:11 Piecewise: Thats what I'd assume
01:51:38 Devastator: anyway, it was pretty bad for them. Sister in law needed hospitalization.
01:51:54 Piecewise: Manage to get through it?
01:52:06 Piecewise: hopefully no side effects?
01:52:17 Devastator: Yeah. She had some coughs for months, but it finished up about now.
01:52:37 Devastator: Yeah. She coulda died.
01:53:01 Piecewise: Good news is still no confirmed fatalities for Omnicron so hopefully we're seeing it get less lethal and more transmissible. Eventually become just another cold
01:53:04 Devastator: fucking jackasses convinced my brother getting the shot can get other people sick.
01:53:18 Devastator: Actually, the data looks like it's less transmissable than Delta.
01:53:23 Devastator: but it does a better job of reinfecting you.
01:53:34 Piecewise: Huh. Well as long as its less lethal
01:53:35 Devastator: Dunno about how bad it is for a bit yet, need more weeks.
01:53:51 Devastator: That's the one I'm not sure about.. everyone says that, but it takes a long time to kill people.
01:54:03 Devastator: need more time there.
01:54:11 Piecewise: Well, sometimes. Remember some covid deaths go pretty fast
01:54:26 Piecewise: Had a receptionist at the office whose husband died in like 3 days
01:54:31 Devastator: A few people don't even know they've got it, right?
01:54:56 Piecewise: The number of asymptomatic cases is very hard to guess
01:55:04 Devastator: I meant 'and they died from it'
01:55:20 Piecewise: Well if its goes real fast probably not
01:55:38 Piecewise: will just look like rapid onset pneumonia and then organ failure
01:56:08 Devastator: Anyway, it looks like we made it through up here. Never got out of control until we had the vaccinations, and Delta didn't get up here until most people had shots.
01:56:30 Devastator: there's some bad outbreaks, but they're concentrated where fewer people have them..
01:57:03 Devastator: but even there, you look at the numbers and it's like 40 hospitalizations per 100k or so, even at the worst.
01:57:13 Devastator: which isn't good, but it could be worse.
01:57:42 Devastator: do note that's the locations where it's worst.
01:57:54 Devastator: where it's best it got to like 12.
01:58:20 Piecewise: I tell ya, trying to look into the numbers for this are a nightmare. I was checking data between a few locations and getting discrepancies in 3 orders of magnitude.
01:58:21 Devastator: but yeah, I do hope the new one is mild.
01:59:03 Piecewise: covid is between 3% and .001% lethal. You know. Somewhere in there
02:00:07 Piecewise: Got plans for christmas?
02:00:13 Piecewise: I'm finally going back home
02:00:21 Piecewise: Done with my year here
02:01:01 Devastator: It's killed more people than .001% of the population. ;-p
02:01:04 Devastator: but nah, no special plans.
02:02:19 Piecewise: The .001 comes from data out of Wisconsin
02:03:17 Piecewise: US data puts it at 1.5%
02:03:20 Devastator: "For the month of July only"
02:04:31 Piecewise: Yeah, but for a ratio of cases to deaths thats fine
02:04:50 Piecewise: though it could be a good month for them
02:05:29 Devastator: still, though.. .001% is one death per 100k cases.
02:05:44 Devastator: that shows 1.2 deaths per514 cases.
02:06:36 Piecewise: Where are you seeing that?
02:06:40 Piecewise: Thats not what the chart shows
02:06:48 Piecewise: That chart shows cases per 100,000
02:06:57 Devastator: and deaths per 100k.
02:07:02 Devastator: not deaths per 100k cases.
02:07:27 Piecewise: ah I see what you mean
02:08:08 Piecewise: Still puts it at what...0.2%
02:08:15 Devastator: Yeah. That seems.. low.
02:10:47 Piecewise: Vaccine effectiveness is something hard to pin down too. Its decreasing effectiveness with time and variants doesn't help
02:11:18 Devastator: Here's the data for BC.
02:12:28 Piecewise: Do they have per capita vaccinated vs unvaccinated rates of hospitalizations, cases, etc?
02:14:42 Piecewise: See the Wisconsin data puts it at about 66% effective to prevent illness, 91% for preventing death, compared to unvaxxed while that data seems to show a much greater capacity to prevent illness.
02:15:08 Piecewise: They giving you the good stuff up there?
02:15:15 Devastator: I got moderna twice.
02:15:22 Devastator: although I think it's about 60% pfitzer.
02:15:44 Piecewise: I got JnJ (Felt terrible after) so got Moderna booster
02:16:42 Piecewise: Yeah, felt like I had a kidney infection. Which is not great when you only have one kidney, lemme tell ya
02:17:02 Piecewise: Still, when I got covid it was so mild that I thought it was just a cold
02:17:12 Piecewise: no fever, no loss of taste or smell
02:17:19 Piecewise: just a cough and congestion
02:17:29 Piecewise: I only took the test to rule it out
02:17:53 Piecewise: So guess its working
02:18:26 Devastator: but nah, they do work.
02:18:33 Devastator: you see that big near-zero period of cases.
02:19:10 Devastator: the peak before that was in mid-april 2021, and we didn't have enough vaccines then.
02:19:17 Devastator: the supply opened up in May and everyone could get them.
02:19:42 Devastator: it then dropped like a stone until Delta showed up.
02:20:42 Devastator: check 'cases and testing, panel view' on that.
02:20:46 Devastator: it'll show the health authorities.
02:20:52 Devastator: guess which regions have low vaccination rates?
02:24:51 Piecewise: Numbers look pretty low to start with. BC have a small population?
02:25:11 Devastator: It's about six million people.
02:25:18 Devastator: and I think that last graph is a rate stat.
02:27:22 Piecewise: They rolling out boosters yet?
02:27:52 Devastator: Yeah, but only to the elderly at this time.
02:28:04 Devastator: I think the current cutoff is 70+
02:30:21 Piecewise: Focusing on those who need it most
02:30:31 Devastator: Well, the elderly also got most of their shots first.
02:30:35 Piecewise: Here I think they just kind of have it available to whoever gets in first
02:31:08 Piecewise: Walgreens is doing some stupid thing of requiring an appointment and only doing half hour slots
02:31:20 Piecewise: vaccinate a whole 20 people a day per store WOW
02:31:23 Devastator: Heh, we had to do appointments to get our first shots.
02:31:45 Devastator: You had to sign up on their webpage and get called back with a list of options.
02:31:50 Piecewise: I just went to the grocery store. They crank you through there real fast.
02:32:05 Devastator: Yeah, we couldn't get much of a supply until mid-may.
02:32:48 Devastator: got my callback and the person asked if I could travel to a nearby city, where they had about a dozen people get it at once in a senior center. Groups every fifteen minutes.
02:33:01 Devastator: Second shot I could get in the civic centre, and it was basically the same thing, just fifty people.
02:33:17 Devastator: Not long after that they just do walk-ins, so we had enough vaccine at that point.
02:34:02 Devastator: They also had a few rolling clinics and what not because there's some pretty remote areas.
02:35:12 Piecewise: Hopefully this can all be over before our....3rd booster
02:35:25 Piecewise: BTW, you guys watching any anime?
02:35:38 Devastator: we watched RE: Zero not too long ago.
02:37:37 Devastator: last coupe things we watched were Back to the Future and Men in Black.
02:37:59 Devastator:
Syv wants the new season of PMMM, and I think we'll watch that ASAP.
02:40:54 Devastator: We tried watching Angel beats, but the first episode wasn't much good. Might watch it some myself to see if it's any good.
02:42:49 Devastator: and as for boosters, eh. Some stuff you need boosters to beat.
02:43:13 Devastator: They'll probably just change the vaccine at some point, if a strain is particularly bad.
02:44:07 Piecewise: I'm hoping the disease becomes weak enough we can treat it like we do the flu vaccine.
02:44:22 Piecewise: Ie, only if you actually really need it
02:44:39 Devastator: I'd rather just beat it.
02:45:17 Devastator: I mean.. last summer up here we did, and it was great.
02:45:23 Devastator: three months with nothing to worry about.
02:45:38 Devastator: then Delta came, and well.. looks like we'll beat that too.
02:45:52 Piecewise: Ya don't beat corona viruses
02:46:00 Piecewise: You hope they become less of a problem
02:46:08 Piecewise: Plague of Justinian is still with us
02:46:37 Devastator: some of them we beat by making treatments.
02:47:52 Devastator: But yeah, maybe. Still..
02:48:35 Devastator: anyway, could stream something.
02:50:20 Devastator: is there a show you'd recommend?
02:54:17 Piecewise: Jobless reincarnation was pretty good for the last two seasons
02:56:10 Piecewise: I like sakugan but I have a feeling the CGI might really put some people off
02:56:27 Piecewise: I like the characters though
02:56:28 Devastator: ..yeah, tbh, usually it's not good even when its good.
02:56:44 Devastator: who are the chars in Sakugan?
02:57:01 Piecewise: mains are the father and his daughter
02:57:25 Piecewise: exploring weird underground world, fighting kaiju with mechs
02:57:51 Devastator: in Extinction, the MC is adventuring with his best friend.. and his best friend's mother.
02:58:05 Devastator: It's been a great source for fun interactions.
02:58:12 Devastator: have to check that out.
02:58:51 Devastator: oh, we also saw the Made in the Abyss movie.
02:59:09 Devastator: was good, but I'm a bit worried about things going forward.. I read some of the manga and the next chapter looked rather worrying.
02:59:35 Piecewise: It will probably be a while till the next adaptation
02:59:49 Piecewise: they manga is slow and they've hung around in that next layer for a while
03:00:11 Piecewise: Which MIA movie? Deep soul or the two others?
03:00:23 Devastator: The one that takes over after the show ended.
03:00:45 Devastator: Yeah, I forget the title.
03:00:48 Devastator: they fight the evil doctor man.
03:01:03 Piecewise: Ah, that series has great music
03:01:21 Devastator: that said.. running extinction really has been fun.
03:01:37 Devastator: almost broke
syv during the last plot sequence.
03:01:45 Devastator: had the MC hock his sword for gambling money in a casino.
03:01:54 Piecewise: Running games can be fun. I've been doing it for. oh god has it been 10 years yet
03:02:54 Piecewise: Like usual I don't look at other people's games. What is extinction?
03:03:18 Devastator: "You are a JRPG protagonist, the suggestion game.
03:03:36 Devastator: worked out a plot for one a long time ago with a friend of mine who was into RPG maker games.
03:04:04 Devastator: we didn't get much work done on it, but we did get a good plot.
03:04:39 Devastator: Right now there's a big battle sequence going on as the main villans are seiging the city the MC is in, in an attempt to kill him.
03:04:46 Piecewise: Have they fought god yet?
03:04:57 Piecewise: gotta fight god in an JRPG
03:05:34 Piecewise: Its happened in both JRPGs I've played
03:05:35 Devastator: You could say that. The people trying to kill the MC sorta qualify as that, and they'll face off against them at the end.
03:05:46 Devastator: It's very common, yeah.
03:05:59 Devastator: although the intended end-boss fight is another adventuring party.
03:06:12 Piecewise: Does the MC have a party or he lone hero?
03:08:18 Devastator: his best friend, his best friend's mother, and a fourth member.
03:09:03 Devastator: Nah, that's not really this game.
03:10:07 Piecewise: I like how his best friend brought his mom along
03:10:22 Piecewise: Wait...there's a manga about that
03:10:34 Piecewise: overpowered mom traveling with adventurer son
03:10:53 Devastator: Unsurprising, but yeah, pretty good.
03:11:41 Devastator: Also it wasn't so much 'chose to bring his mom along' as 'mom wanted to find out why the hell so many people want to murder her son's best friend.'
03:12:07 Piecewise: also, goddamn manga and LN names are getting stupid
03:12:08 Piecewise: Bouken ni, Tsuitekonaide Okaasan!: Chouka Hogo na Saikyou Dragon ni Sodaterareta Musuko, Hahaoya Douhan de Boukensha ni Naru
03:12:22 Devastator: the MC's a dragon, fwiw. ;-p
03:12:33 Devastator: the one dragon. Kinda the whole plot there.
03:12:38 Devastator: Just saying from that link.
03:12:58 Piecewise: The MC is a human adopted by the mom dragon lady
03:13:19 Piecewise: Oh, to your eternity also a good anime
03:15:00 Devastator: anyway, still got some twists in store, but mostly it's just fun going through scenes.
03:15:43 Devastator: plus it's nice being able to do stuff like have an evil empire actually be dangerous.
03:16:09 Piecewise: Suggestion games do let you control the story and direction a lot more tightly
03:16:22 Devastator: Yeah. I do kinda want to run something in your style some day.
03:16:34 Devastator: players get a character each.
03:16:43 Devastator: have them do missions.
03:17:04 Piecewise: its an efficient way to handle things in PBP settings
03:18:34 Devastator: I like open world stuff, but players just brainlock when they hit situations like that, so..
03:19:58 Piecewise: some people are able to do it
03:20:28 Piecewise: I think a "Branching Paths" sort of set up might be a good inbetween
03:21:45 Devastator: anyway, you want to see a broken
syv?
03:23:44 Devastator: also got him to go "Fuck" when a villain showed up unexpectedly, so..
03:25:36 Devastator: ugh, too many games I want to run.
03:25:36 Piecewise: I see you forced him to then play fantasy card games
03:25:48 Devastator: Hey, he was pro casino!
03:25:52 Devastator: could have not went in
03:26:47 Devastator: but yeah, had to make one up.
syv likes complex rules and trying to grind stuff like that out, and the sword thing motivated him.
03:27:03 Devastator: so it was a good digression. I think it only went like a week or so.
03:31:17 Piecewise: You ever watch konosuba?
03:32:58 Piecewise: The first episode is up on youtube. Might enjoy it
03:33:09 Piecewise: Satire of JRPG/Isekai.
03:34:33 Devastator: I do like JRPG, but there's a lot wrong with it.
03:35:23 Piecewise: It can be very silly
03:50:49 Devastator: anyway, didn't buy much in Mook, just a few non-lethal grenades and a toolkit.
03:51:14 Devastator: worried about no armour, but I figure that most weapons will be really big, so might as well go with nothing.
03:51:30 Devastator: could spend for a d6, but that doesn't help much against a 2d8 weapon. ;-p
03:54:33 Devastator: I don't have forced revives in this game! ;-p
03:56:47 Devastator: There is freedom in death! ;-p
04:22:23 Piecewise: Don't put on the brain ring and you can escape
04:22:31 Piecewise: unless
Sy summons you back
04:23:47 Devastator: goddamn ghost powers.
04:25:23 Devastator: What kinda things have been bought from the researchers?
04:25:50 Devastator: thinking I might double down on no revives and buy something body-related.
04:26:02 Devastator: no fear opens up more options..
04:27:16 Devastator: that's mostly what implants are for.
04:38:27 Piecewise: I forget what people have got
04:38:35 Piecewise: might as well shoot for whatever you want
04:38:41 Piecewise: Personally, I'm shooting for bed
04:51:12 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
04:52:06 syv: Most upsettingly disappointing game of my lifetime
04:56:17 Devastator: I know you really liked Frozen Synapse.
04:59:54 syv: And FS2 would've been one of my favorite games of all time! Probably my favorite tactical TBS game!
05:00:01 syv: But it is SO FUCKING BROKEN.
05:00:29 syv: And for so little reason, too. It's *close enough* to functional that I could almost see a modder fixing it.
05:01:04 syv: Tweak things, disable a few mechanics, alter some numbers, and it would be close to perfect. A jank perfect, but with jank that's not experience-ruining.
05:01:54 syv: Back when I actually played through a full campaign, I wrote up something like two thousand words of complaints, most of them being described with only a sentence or two to save space.
05:03:27 syv: Bugs and strange mechanics are the rule in that game, not the exception. And even so, it's fun enough that I played through a full campaign; if I could disable the most egregious 20%, it'd be acceptable.
05:04:30 syv: That's what makes it particularly upsetting. I absolutely love the concept, and what they came close to doing, and... it ends up being significantly less enjoyable just because of very stupid mechanics.
05:05:55 Devastator: dunno if that's better or worse than the MoO3 situation, where it doesn't, but there's just enough pieces where you could see a good game existing.
05:06:51 syv: Better or worse is probably highly subjective.
05:07:04 Devastator: No, MoO3 was more broken than what you describe.
05:07:13 Devastator: I'm referring to the feeling of abject disappointment.
05:07:44 syv: Probably better, then, because it's less tempting. Less ability to make you play enough to see what could have been.
05:08:07 Devastator: I actually have a copy of that right here.
05:09:18 Devastator: That is something I should stream one day.
05:09:58 Devastator: dammit, I don't remember the forum in joke easter eggs in the civilopedia equivalent.
05:10:30 Devastator: Having something you can come 80% of the way to enjoying might be worse than having something 20% of the way to enjoyment.
05:11:17 syv: That's not quite what I mean.
05:11:53 Devastator: can you give me a couple of examples?
05:11:58 syv: FS2 is... mostly functional. You can play it, enjoy it, and complete it. Although you probably won't, because there's a lot of bugs that end progress.
05:12:23 syv: 's frustrating is that a lot of the game mechanics are reduced to meaninglessness.
05:13:22 syv: Killing enemy units--or your own units dying--has *no* long term effects. They respawn in a short period of time. So if an enemy attacks your base, and fails, it has zero repercussions for anyone. Similarly, if you attack and fail, there's no penalty whatsoever.
05:13:53 Devastator: that sounds like a big decision in a tactical game.
05:14:17 syv: Well, that's a strategic layer issue
05:15:33 syv: FS has two modes. First, the zoomed in tactical fights, which are played with 5-second turns. Whoever kills all enemy units (or achieves the win condition) gains control of the area the fight occured in, or gains the reward that was fought over.
05:16:12 syv: Second, the strategic layer, where there's an entire procgen city with many different factions, sending squads all over the place to war with each other and gain control of resources.
05:16:52 syv: You may recognize this as sounding similar to the originally described strategic gameplay of Mad Max With Wizards, or Chalice. :P
05:17:20 syv: Tactical victories DO give benefits to the player--you can take loot, or control a building, which has benefits.
05:17:40 syv: Tactical defeats don't. Almost as a rule.
05:17:41 Devastator: It's also the strategic gameplay of some of the oldest strat-tac combat games of all of them.
05:18:13 syv: It's been compared to XCom Apocalypse a lot.
05:18:52 Devastator: I was thinking older.
05:19:11 Devastator: but I can never remember the names.
05:19:40 syv: Sure. I don't know of anything that's quite so similar, though; Apoc has a city, with territorial control, many factions, and real-time tactical fights within occupied buildings.
05:20:13 Devastator: There was one where you'd equip your own troops and it was like medieval armies.
05:20:28 Devastator: There was also the Lords of the Realm series, but that's about the same time as Apoc.
05:20:43 Devastator: I'm thinking of a very early 2d one whose name I can never remember.
05:21:47 syv: Anyway, you can make progress by winning battles, and claiming territory, but for the most part the enemy AI can't. Theoretically you should be able to lose if they attack your home base and kill your commander... but with how defense is MASSIVELY stacked in favor of the defender, it won't happen unless you substantially screw up.
05:22:13 syv: And when they attack and occupy buildings which aren't your HQ, it essentially does not matter.
05:22:29 Devastator: that's not necessarily unforgiveable, but.
05:22:33 Devastator: yeah, I can see that sucking.
05:23:13 syv: You could improve this a lot by just making deaths permanent. Enemy attacks your base, and you lose two soldiers? That actually matters, repeated attacks could wear you down and reduce your ability to attack places.
05:23:23 syv: As is, every casualty will regen before the second attack.
05:24:38 syv: A second issue is how defenders are stacked--in a base defense, every single defending soldier stationed there takes part, but attackers are limited to six-man squads, or twelve-man for the PC through use of a glitch that allows a double attack.
05:24:58 syv: This is obviously meant to put the player at a disadvantage, because of course they'll be better than the AI.
05:26:13 syv: But it utterly hamstrings the AI from being able to attack at all, and a player can still exploit stronger numbers by attacking repeatedly (the AI units regen after six hours too, but the player has no restriction from attacking six times in an hour, with six squads).
05:26:44 Devastator: and the AI has no concept of doing that.
05:27:49 syv: If the AI were just allowed to make squads of any size, then it'd be fine. They could attack with an overwhelming army of thirty units, and while it'd be a failure scenario... it's good if you can fail in a strategic game. Also, FS is fun to play when outnumbered, especially in defensive scenarios.
05:28:18 syv: Plus, if deaths were permanent, mounting a desperate defense that loses, but kills half the attackers, would be meaningful.
05:29:31 syv: Money in the game is broken, because of a very simple and entirely insane choice. Money is not *spent* on anything. It is *invested*, and can always be taken back out (unless a bug disables that, which does happen with some frequency).
05:29:52 syv: So it's another way in which it's impossible to lose progress. If you gain money, in any way, you will now always have that.
05:30:00 syv: It seems to work the same for the AI.
05:31:36 syv: Finally... the last broken thing, diplomacy is broken. Investing money in an AI faction (bribing them)... gains more positive reputation than canceling an investment.
05:31:40 Devastator: ..yeah, that does sound bad.
05:32:05 syv: So if you have 50k cash, you can ensure you always have positive relations with every AI by repeatedly making and canceling 50k investment.
05:32:36 syv: I exploited this after I got bored of base defenses that I'd just win easily, and which had no effect on anything whatsoever.
05:34:08 Devastator: Yeah, that's something special, really.
05:34:08 syv: Remove faction investments. Make it so troops permadie, which also makes money able to be lost. Remove limits on attacker numbers.
05:34:14 syv: And bam, you'd have a great game.
05:34:25 Devastator: get 50k, win game immediately is a somewhat significant bug.
05:34:38 syv: It'd still have a ton of bugs and jank, but... that alone would massively improve it.
05:34:55 Devastator: couldn't find the game I was thinking of, but got reminded of Stars!
05:35:26 Devastator: that was an experience in multiplayer.
05:35:39 syv: There's a tons of ways it vould be improved otherwise, and lots of those would require more careful
dev attention and coding... but this stuff seems so relatively minor and easily fixable, that it's just... *why?*
05:36:06 syv: Fix 10% of the worst bugs, which should also be easiest, and make the game four times better. Meh.
05:36:39 Devastator: Stars is a space simulation game that has some odd similarities to the first Master of Orion.
05:36:52 Devastator: they're very different, but they share the combination of tactical combat and strategic combat.
05:37:03 Devastator: but Stars is about 15 times more complicated, and not 15 times as good.
05:38:10 Devastator: It has one of those communities like Allegiance, full of stupid experienced players who have overtuned the game. It had a wide variety of player-controlled race creation options.. like you could make a race that could only live on one in 15 planets, or you could make a race of spore breeders that could go everywhere, and it tried to balance them against each other.
05:38:34 syv: Damn. That sounds neat, though.
05:38:37 Devastator: It did a far better job than it was intended, but the community eventually overtuned it in favor of 'one right path'.
05:38:44 Devastator: I played a couple of multiplayer games of it.
05:38:54 Devastator: It is neat in concept if a bit too hard.
05:39:01 Devastator: that said, nobody told me the Right Path. ;-p
05:39:20 Devastator: so, apparently, I broke every convention of the game in playing it and it was an incredibly weird experience.
05:40:57 Devastator: baaasically, you're supposed to go with the spore breeders who don't need to build colony ships to expand, and take something like -40% penalties to ship construction, because in mid-late game you can stack modifiers which render that irrelevant.
05:40:58 syv: Were you defeated trivially, or did the sheer wrongness trip up your opponents?
05:41:46 Devastator: and competition is based around tuning your increasing supply of planets to maximize pop growth, optimize scouting, and take as much territory as possible.
05:42:46 Devastator: I went with 'lets be only able to colonize naturally 3% of planets, because I think you get more bonus points to compensate for havnig to terraform 97% of planets as opposed to 94% of planets.
05:43:19 Devastator: Then I took a bunch of fast industrial expansion perks, not fast population growth, because in my test game it was likely to cap out the planet if taking the recommend pop growth and having few avalable colonies.
05:44:36 Devastator: ..but you could extract resources with spaceships, even with no colony.
05:45:36 Devastator: aaanyway, the one big bottleneck for the breeders is with the penalties it takes them a long time to build starbases. In order to build colony ships or warships from a planet, you need a starbase. Omnibreeders don't need that to expand or take resources, since they have a spread method that doesn't require ships.
05:45:48 syv: So normally people would have a pop on every planet they could reach, especially ones with resources... but instead you had massive capitals rarely, and a few big freighter mining ships spaced around.
05:45:56 Devastator: Not quite like that.
05:46:03 Devastator: You got the first part right.
05:46:50 Devastator: in my case I had a cloud of many dozens of mining ships and transports and such. I did end up finding a few alternate planets, but I couldn't make pace with the breeders my way.. the industrial route is far worse.
05:47:06 Devastator: the breeders can't build warships with no starbases. Everyone gets one free starbase at their starting planet.
05:47:22 Devastator: and ships pay nothing for ammunition, and can bomb out populations.
05:48:11 Devastator: so it became a challenge of if I could keep enough warfleets in orbit around breeder planets to outpace their pop growth, while paying nothing for the bombers, and forcing my opponent to write off the dozens of cheap colonies.
05:48:48 Devastator: the key breakpoint was if I had enough ships together to blow up a starbase. If I did that, I could lock down that colony forever, or even use that one fleet to take on lik efour, five planets, moving around them in cycles.
05:50:29 Devastator: Anyway, I ended up losing it, largely due to not attacking soon enough. If I'd realized what I had to do to win a dozen or so turns earlier, I would have pulled it off. As is, a few too many planets got out of the choke, and eventually the opponent got some fleets together. There was some doubt, but I would have been outplayed in the late game, so not much real doubt.
05:50:41 syv: But they still had their full fleets, just bottlenecked to their starting star?
05:50:42 Devastator: that said, the guy did call it the dumbest game ever.
05:50:48 Devastator: no, you don't start with a warfleet.
05:51:01 Devastator: They didn't have any warfleets.
05:51:20 Devastator: I did blow up their home starbase, too.
05:51:38 syv: Hah, that makes it better!
05:51:54 syv: I thought you meant you were doing this while also fighting a conventional war.
05:52:16 syv: But no, it was, like... trying to contain the Flood/Zerg/Orks.
05:52:26 Devastator: Essentially, yeah. I simply didn't move early enough.
05:52:45 syv: It's pretty cool that the game organically resulted in that.
05:52:49 Devastator: should have moved as soon as I had one fleet that could take out a starbase.
05:53:37 Devastator: too bad. If I'd won at Stars!, in my first competitive game, against a real vet playing his specialty, it would have been absolutely incredible.
05:54:05 Devastator: although, really, the meta was quite degenerate.
05:54:16 Devastator: someone should be able to pull that off.
05:54:47 syv: What happens when everyone plays meta, in an at all balanced game.
05:55:01 syv: Someone plays offmeta, and it's weird enough to squeeze out a win.
05:55:08 Devastator: Balance isn't that bad. It is overtuned a good bit, but overall it seemed quite viable.
05:55:16 Devastator: it was utterly nonviable if you rule out an early rush, though..
05:55:34 Devastator: we could play that sometime.
05:55:41 Devastator: also note, I can't beat the AI in it. ;-p
06:00:25 syv: Abandonia calls it an adventure game.
06:00:49 syv: I downloaded it, readme says to put a dll in c:\windows.
06:01:36 Devastator: Yeah, that's a requirement. I understand if you don't.
06:02:49 syv: Not right now then, but if we agree to play some time.
06:03:01 Devastator: yeah. It's also a 16-bit program.
06:03:08 Devastator: so there's a few additional hoops to jump through.
06:03:38 Devastator: Yeah. I haven't played it on this computer.
06:07:18 Devastator: but it'll be a chore, that's all I know.
06:07:47 syv: Something to do on a day when I'm tired and don't want to do anything productive.
06:08:24 syv: I made a new little system for Nyafor.
06:08:42 syv: Working off the mechanics and gunlist I made for Verloren.
06:09:32 Devastator: ..god, when did I play it?
06:09:40 Devastator: I've had this comp for quite a few years now.
06:10:11 Devastator: Yeah, that's a copy on the former XP partition, so must have been on that one.
06:10:24 Devastator: well, probably VM time.
06:13:26 Devastator: I think I have an XP disk around which should work fine.
06:13:42 Devastator: how the fuck am I gonna use a VM through multiplayer?
06:14:30 Devastator: ugh, might VM some kinda linux then, which will add another set of fun.
06:16:31 Devastator: I suspect I'm going to need to write you procedures.
06:16:56 syv: I don't have problems following procedures.
06:17:20 syv: I'm not hugely interested in the game, but I'm curious enough to go through some degree of work.
06:17:28 syv: Mostly up to how much you want to try it.
06:17:55 Devastator: we could use remote administration and play hotseat on my computer.
06:18:01 Devastator: that would probably be the easy way to to it.
06:19:43 syv: ...Okay. If you'd be willing. o.O
06:20:17 Devastator: someone ported a direct version of it for dosbox.
06:20:24 syv: Should prolly still write instructions on how to set up without internet, so I can do a solo game or two without hogging your comput--
06:20:30 syv: Well that sounds simple. ^-^
06:20:48 Devastator: Gotta pay for that version.
06:21:09 Devastator: I'd be willing to cover a few bucks for it.
06:21:18 Devastator: multiplayer, though..
06:22:40 syv: "Stars! was designed for this OS."
06:23:43 syv: Hm, dosbox download seems to be free?
06:24:19 syv: You only need to pay for additional multiplayer seriel codes beyond what comes with the game, according to the readme in the abandonia download.
06:24:40 syv: I.E. if you want to use their online hosting, and not host yourself with friends.
06:26:07 Devastator: it's to support the autohoster.
06:26:13 Devastator: so we could play it just fine.
06:26:27 Devastator: dos version does ask for a code, but can use the ones from that file.
06:26:45 Devastator: we'd have to do something like remote admin to multiplayer that.
06:28:16 Devastator: I'll think about it.
06:28:44 syv: I won't allow remote access to my computer, because... it's something I don't understand well enough, and seems like a good thing to say "never ever" on.
06:29:01 syv: You can do as you think best.
06:29:34 syv: I won't try and do anything or exploit the connection, not that I'd know how in all likelihood. But that does seem like a big show of trust all the same.
06:29:38 Devastator: It'd work the other way around.
06:29:55 Devastator: pfft, it would be a bit of a show of trust, but I know how to handle that.
06:30:01 Devastator: I'd just make another user.
06:30:34 syv: ...I don't think I've ever actually done that. On any computer I've owned.
06:30:37 Devastator: you could theoretically do stuff, but I'd still be here.
06:30:45 syv: I haven't had reason to, either. But still.
06:30:45 Devastator: I did it a lot when fixing computers for people.
06:31:13 Devastator: and yeah, it'd work the other way around. You'd be remote admining me.
06:39:00 Devastator: that's the same game but not the same version. A bit more clunky.
06:43:40 Devastator: anyway, I kinda would rather livestream the trainwreck that is MoO 3.
06:43:49 Devastator: before messing with Stars! for hours.
06:47:51 Devastator: this is the release version, too!
06:48:03 Devastator: the glory that is the full PD bug, among other things.
06:48:07 syv: Not such a fan of streams.
06:48:17 Devastator: aww, but I know all the dirty secrets.. ;-p
06:48:18 syv: Might listen while I fuck with GDocs?
06:48:36 Devastator: nah, I'll save it for
MJ or someone. I will install it, though, see if there's any other hoops.
06:50:08 syv: I wonder how hard it is to get python to read data from a doc file.
06:50:53 syv: This one is saved as a .xls, for whatever reason.
06:51:08 syv: "Microsoft Excel 97-2003 Worksheet"
06:51:32 Devastator: oh good, it's not 365 or later.
06:51:35 syv: But I'm pretty sure it can just be transferred to whatever, it's not complex. It copied easily to GDocs.
06:52:13 syv: And transfers back fine, too.
06:53:23 Devastator: oh man, the memories are flooding back.
06:53:31 Devastator: can you put it in a csv?
06:55:48 Devastator: the windows 3.1 installer.
06:55:50 syv: Have to figure out how to make a csv first ;P
06:56:29 Devastator: there's one other thing.
06:56:46 Devastator: you don't know why FS2 is bad.
06:56:50 Devastator: I know why MoO 3 is bad.
06:57:14 Devastator: Gamespy arcade installation prompt!
06:58:00 Devastator: Worst multiplayer service ever.
06:58:01 syv: Seems I can import it into a csv, yes.
06:58:11 Devastator: Python should be able to deal with that.
06:58:27 syv: More information on why MoO3 is bad?
06:58:37 Devastator: Actually, that wasn't an issue.
06:58:41 syv: And is csv just a text file format of a doc?
06:58:52 Devastator: csv stands for comma seperated values.
06:58:57 Devastator: it won't have any formatting or funky characters.
06:59:08 Devastator: you'll still have to work with it, but there won't be stuff like that.
06:59:17 Devastator: you didn't know about csvs?
06:59:31 Devastator: insert xkcd about today you are one of the 30,000 people.
06:59:55 syv: This could almost natively support AoTTG map script editing!
07:00:24 syv: Those are basically *already* CSVs, just with a little more jank
07:00:29 Devastator: CSVs are neither old or obsolete.
07:01:10 syv: Actually, not quite, because map scripts are fuck.
07:01:39 syv: This makes me want to talk to Ricecake or Syal about just changing the ordering of values, though.
07:02:46 Devastator: always nice to teach someone like that.
07:06:40 syv: And python has a library for reading them, of course.
07:07:25 syv: Yeah, I was just idly wondering how hard it'd be to make an automatic roller which pulls data from the spreadsheet. And this would make that actually pretty trivial.
07:08:21 syv: It could also be used for saving it in a format that's nice to read directly.
07:16:06 Devastator: anyway, played for five minutes, game crashed upon exit and alt-tab behavior is wretched.
07:16:15 Devastator: but it seems functional enough to stream.
07:17:00 Devastator: They also wrote half the core forum members into the credits, which brings back a lot of memories.
07:17:09 Devastator: even if I can't remember all the manual easter eggs.
07:17:46 Devastator: No.. it's beyond that.
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08:02:06 ER: the problem with being a fleshhorror is that you can't ever eat the same thing twice without being a cannibal
08:13:07 syv: Sounds less like fleshorrors have a problem with eating, and more like you have a problem with cannibalism.
08:13:57 Devastator: played 15 minutes of MoO 3. It really is impressive how poor it is.
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08:14:57 syv: I made this awhile ago, I've just been off-and-on messing with it in GDocs.
08:15:42 syv: I like the system, though.
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08:18:30 Devastator: but yeah, moo3 is a thousand buttons that do nothing.
08:19:06 syv: Might extend the colors fully down the row, to help identify which gun has which stats when you're looking to the right. The mixed faction ordering would actually help there.
08:19:20 syv: But first I want to put each faction's list into their own sheet.
08:19:28 syv: And then mess with the actual game mechanics more.
08:21:03 Devastator: Which one's the Mellowlink gun?
08:26:38 syv: M3L = MELlowlink, Artee = Arity
08:26:46 Devastator: didn't scroll down.
08:27:12 syv: Eh, they're all obscure puns, I wouldn't expect you to recognize it.
08:27:15 ER: isn't that the one which was an old antitank rifle
08:27:18 syv: Especially not knowing the system.
08:27:45 ER: which I guess the cats just didn't bother replacing :p
08:27:56 syv: It's the only one capable of critting at short range, and has the best CQB score of any AMR.
08:28:00 Devastator: nah, it's for the close combat capability.
08:29:00 syv: It's still an okay sniper, too. Just not a good one.
08:29:07 ER: but how useful is it for anti-materiel? ;p
08:29:20 Devastator: worst long range capability.
08:30:48 syv: It's as fine as any 15mm for anti-materiel.
08:31:10 syv: They do have differing damage, but it's really small compared to what the caliber contributes.
09:06:30 syv: I want to do powerstancing >n<
09:06:54 ER: the lore, I want the lore v.v
09:07:56 ER: someone speculated that it would turn out to be a sci-fi setting greadually, like how bloodborne unfolds into cosmic horror
09:08:18 syv: That occured to me a little while ago.
09:08:33 syv: Mostly dismissed the idea, seems a bit random.
09:08:44 ER: the trailer guy who was the conquerer of the stars or something
09:09:00 ER: and the elden ring was that which commanded the stars
09:09:36 ER: and it could have been a ringworld or something
09:11:53 Devastator: maybe they stole from me. ;-p
09:12:21 ER: and apparently the rune which appears then you cast gravity spells is like a magnetic field diagram, so it's totally sci-fi :p
09:13:12 syv: Man, that would actually be extremely interesting if it turns out magic is just interfacing with the scifi power network or w/e that was set up.
09:13:22 syv: And those fire giants supposedly fell from the sky.
09:16:47 Devastator: dark souls is sci fi.
09:21:02 ER: I read the giant construct things falling from the sky as a laputa castle in the sky reference >.>
09:21:20 ER: maybe my memory is shit but I thought they looked similar to the robot thing in that
09:23:14 syv: Well yes, they are, of course they are
09:23:22 syv: But that would work perfectly for Scifi!
09:23:40 syv: I mean, Fromsoft wouldn't do *generic* scifi. They didn't do generic Lovecraft, after all.
09:28:58 Devastator: this is the one that's going to have mounts, right?
09:29:47 ER: you do a little whistle and he appears. he is a good boy and can double jump
09:30:27 ER: enemies also ride horses, and said horses actually seem to be different NPCs
09:30:44 syv: Which is, like, significant.
09:30:46 ER: since you can kill the horse from under them, or kill the rider and the horse runs away
09:31:49 Devastator: "good boy who can double jump"
09:32:09 Devastator: it is significant, but otherwise it isn't really a mount.
09:32:16 Devastator: it's just one enemy with a different model.
09:32:28 ER: horse guy in sekiro was just one NPC
09:34:02 syv: And they've been *trying* to do that at least sincs DS2.
09:34:32 ER: yeah, that's the real point I guess
09:34:42 syv: DS3 has NK, DS2 has the chariot, Sekiro has MASATAKA ONIWA, Bloodborne has some cut content stuff IIRC.
09:35:07 syv: Though BB actually *did* have at least one "mounted" NPC, atop The One Reborn.
09:35:08 ER: horse guy in sekiro is a fake horse guy, but he was the first horse guy they got in at all, and they tried to make him a real guy it was just too hard
09:35:47 ER: winter lanterns are technically mounted NPCs :p
09:36:10 ER: they just have an invisible immortal thing attached to them which shoots frenzy bullets at you
09:36:19 syv: The Celestial Emissaries too, IIRC.
09:37:01 syv: Hell, Lorian sorta is a mounted NPC (but not the visible model).
09:37:24 syv: The notable thing is it's an *actual* NPC with their own model that does stuff and can become separated.
09:37:51 ER: and you can knock them off and do a crit while they're on the ground
09:37:52 syv: In all other cases, it's just a hack to enable something.
09:38:06 ER: and then have that done to you and ask for an easy mode please
09:38:08 Devastator: they're two different models, stop calling each one them.
09:40:57 Devastator: next question, can you steal the mount?
09:41:13 ER: no, I think you can only ride Torrent
09:41:23 Devastator: do you get Torrent right away?
09:41:39 ER: which is a horse but he has horns which isn't a thing horses have so he looks more like a goat or something
09:42:10 ER: after finding like two or three bonfires you get him
09:42:19 ER: at least, in the network test thingie
09:42:32 ER: might be different in the actual game but it's something like that
09:43:46 Devastator: no sense in burying the most awesome feature.
09:44:54 ER: like shadow of mordor, you have to get to the second half before you can actually start controlling orcs
09:45:28 ER: before then they're all just enemies, but they still have a system and interact and stuff, which can be interesting on its own
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09:46:10 Devastator: yeah, but the basic From software stuff is well known and it's not something to screw with too much.
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09:52:00 syv: Maybe I'll have to resume PS if he reappears.
09:52:13 ER: he better be alive because I don't know what to do with sophia otherwise
09:52:22 Devastator:
paris might have e-mail notifications.
09:52:41 Devastator: well, there's a woof sophia could ride. ;-p
09:53:08 ER: hey
parisbre56[Away] show yourself so that
syv has to revive PS
09:53:29 syv: Go ahead and PM him that on the forum
09:53:58 Devastator: actually, that's the thing about Sophia.
09:54:14 Devastator: whatever crisises happen, it's always an improvement for her.
09:54:43 ER: yes, that was my brilliant plan
09:54:52 Devastator: so if one of the other chars comes up with a problem, weird stuf.f
09:55:53 Devastator: 'your dad's sick?' ;-p
09:56:07 Devastator: 'your miraculous recovery is straining your family life?'
09:56:41 syv: "It's rather awkward knowing I've been... riding you."
09:57:37 Devastator: just not much sympathy.
09:57:45 Devastator: also, need to remember that in case someone wishes for a horse. ;-p
09:57:54 Devastator: gonna be a psychic magic horse or something.
09:58:01 syv: Why the fuck is an Alrich Faithful invasion instant, but darkmoons NEVER function???
09:58:16 ER: your dad's sick? like... how is that a problem for you again?
09:59:20 ER: because faithful invade in a popular pvp area, while darkmoons need to find an invasion in progress in whatever area you happen to be in?
10:00:49 Devastator: yeah. Was trying to imagine a problem that would cause Sophia to be sympathetic, but couldn't think of one, up to and including Alida literally eating someone by mistake.
10:01:07 Devastator: nah, maybe some missing limb stuff could do it.
10:01:37 ER: I dunno, sophia might be a little disturbed by cannibalism
10:01:41 Devastator: would paralysis count?
10:02:08 ER: what's the situation there?
10:03:11 Devastator: eh, say Sophia sees a witch victim be stuck with a spinal injury and nonfunctioning legs.
10:03:37 Devastator: but you know, they're going to live, getting attention..
10:03:52 ER: sounds like some good triage ammo
10:04:59 syv: I was darkmooning in anor londo
10:05:13 syv: And then switched to faithful, and got... an anor londo world with a red invader.
10:05:29 ER: well, maybe it's broken in some way :p
10:06:31 Devastator: get them mixed up? ;-p
10:06:41 syv: It was a triple invasion too.
10:06:51 syv: I didn't join in on ganking the host, and just sat and watched.
10:06:52 ER: kind of wish that darkmoons were a covenent to invade the guilty in DS3, otherwise it's just a clone of blue sentenels
10:07:10 syv: The other purple kept attacking at me because I wasn't helping. Because he was losing a fucking 2v1 and needed ir.
10:07:40 syv: Beat me easily after he killed the other two.
10:08:21 Devastator: did you clap guesture?
10:34:17 syv: Man, that was awesome. I got a triple invasion against "Shadow of Londor", who seems to be hacking. Summoned aldrichs into farron swamp.
10:34:23 syv: ...But he beat us all totally legit.
10:34:39 syv: And then, when it was me and him, started using a composite bow, showing how to use it effectively.
10:34:53 syv: Because I had been trying to support with a bow while fighting
10:36:22 Devastator: is there a time limit on invastions?
10:37:49 syv: He wasn't sandbagging any more than is necessary in a 3v1.
10:59:24 syv: I summoned a red sign guy, who parried me on my second attack. Then did a quickswap that would've oneshot me, prolly.
10:59:41 syv: But he didn't take it, and switched to a parry-only shield. And just tried to parry.
11:00:00 syv: ...And since I've played a ton of DS1, I know how to attack in a way that's very very difficult to parry.
11:00:31 syv: Got him down to a smidge of HP, and he clapped, then turned around and waited for a backstab.
11:24:06 ER: thanks to
dev's good deal, I'll play mook
11:24:40 ER: as explosives specialist, because that seems good for if things need to get deleted.
11:33:16 Devastator: it's almost like people should have been starting at that. ;-p
11:34:06 Devastator: also what was the unparryable attack?
11:43:50 syv: ...I think twohanded and jump attacks may be unparriable in DS3, but I didn't use either.
11:44:22 syv: Specifically, I was just using the entire moveset randomly, and mixing up dead angles and normal hits.
11:45:04 syv: And since you need to predict the timing of the attack... "random attack delayed by a random number of frames" is really, really, hard to parry.
11:47:08 ER: huh, when have twohanded attacks been unparryable?
11:50:03 syv: They're unparriable with ultras, I believe.
11:50:04 ER: I wonder if jump attacks have ever been *intended* to be unparryable, or if it just happened because they're funky throws
11:50:17 syv: That might be a DS2 feature, but I think it's DS3?
11:50:53 syv: You can parry the Artorias leap attack.
11:51:04 syv: If it were intentional, why wouldn't they just make that immune?
11:51:46 ER: yeah, and gundyr's super parryable leap attack
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15:21:47 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Fleshorrors dream of feline BASS
15:21:47 Topic set by syv [Saturday 22 May 2021, 04:44:55]
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