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03:00:32 Devastator: writing out rules for a land war.
04:02:35 syv has joined #einsteinianroulette
04:03:03 syv: That SC2 challenge sounds insane.
04:04:16 ER: I'm typing RTD godgame rules for some reason
04:05:11 syv: I know that feel, but replace "god" with "gun".
04:08:13 ER: basically, minus complicted resource or worship or relative power systems, just a series of 1d6 rtd tables for different levels of ambitious action
04:08:48 ER: and sphere-based affinity changing level by 1
04:11:45 Devastator: did some more stuff for land war.
04:11:53 Devastator: feel free to comment. Note that nothing is done yet, not by half.
04:12:25 ER: did I remember right you being in Sand and Souls,
Devastator?
04:12:55 Devastator: I don't recall the name, although I did want to join one of your god-type games.
04:13:55 ER: that was where the world was initially an infinite plane of sand. and then I went a bit eldritch and sacrificed my heart to the sand, making it alive...
04:14:39 Devastator: I'm not sure. Maybe. I remember you doing that, but don't think I was playing that one.
04:15:47 Devastator: Yeah. Whisperling does good games.
04:15:49 Devastator: but no, wasn't in that one.
04:16:13 ER: hum. feel like I talked to you about it though.
04:17:37 Devastator: Yeah. I did read it, and it was good.
04:18:22 Devastator: not quite my style, though, I do more planning.
04:19:55 Devastator: oh, and yeah,
syv, that 3 simultaneous campaigns challenge is utterly mad.
04:27:42 ER: not sure how well planning will work out in the system I'm working on here. Might have to get your opinion on it.
04:28:15 ER: Going for actions at "simple" level should be reasonably safe and could build up to something over time.
04:29:04 ER: but I intend for there to be unforeseen consequnces. since that lets me do my own level of godgaming ;p
04:29:06 Devastator: I mean, I'm willing to give it a shot.
04:29:26 Devastator: I think the big issue is usually unexpected upside.
04:29:42 Devastator: like I roll well, and get a special benefit I don't want and consider a bad thing. ;-p
04:29:45 ER: in that cooking godgame I did on discord I had a hand in the form of most things which existed because RTD is like that
04:30:21 ER: hmm, then it's probably best to submit Simple actions with your intent stated
04:30:30 ER: 5 - sometimes the smallest of touches can tilt the balance. this is one of those times. unless extinguished by an outside power, your actions will have the exact impact you intend. eventually.
04:30:39 Devastator: Yeah, I think you're fine, but it's rough sometimes.
04:30:48 ER: 6 - the flap of a butterfly's wings causes a hurricane on the other side of the world.
04:31:12 ER: but with simples you won't get horrible outcomes on a 1 or anything
04:31:32 Devastator: like in Nak's you are a monster, successfully convincing people to fight smarter not harder meant they vowed to fight harder, and Nak really didn't understand what the goal was. ;-p
04:32:23 Devastator: "You got them pumped up, which is good!" "The orders were to convince them to be less agressive!"
04:32:26 Devastator: but yeah, lots of that.
04:32:57 ER: it can be hard to get inside your head
04:33:25 ER: like, I can guess what tric wants
04:33:28 Devastator: anyway, what you describe should be fine. Like building infrastructure and such having longterm follow on rando stuff.
04:34:03 ER: [rolls a 1, spawns a Demon of Hatred]
04:34:04 Devastator: Wheras with me, the answer is 'play the game wrongly.'
04:43:26 ER: "the result is stronger than your ambition, for better or worse."
04:43:41 ER: that's a 5 at middling difficulty.
04:45:10 ER: acceptable level of risk? :p
04:46:37 Devastator: Need the full table, but it sounds interesting.
05:24:48 ER: think I'll PM this stuff to
dev. do you want a look at it too,
syv?
05:25:28 syv: Not really interested, then.
05:26:18 ER: might be adaptable to general RTD but even so it's probably not your style
05:26:35 ER: more of a reference book for minimalism...
05:30:40 syv: I need to make an icosahedron for this map, but I don't know math.
05:32:28 ER: was the risk you took calculated?
05:32:31 Devastator: what are you trying to do, just a 2d icosahedron?
05:33:57 syv: AoTTG has a flat forest map, which is a square. I copied the map five times, and then rotated each copy around a point above the map, forming a cube where each inner face is an exact copy of the original square forest.
05:34:31 syv: I want to do the same, but using triangular faces to make an icosahedron, with each inner face being a copy of a map.
05:34:48 syv: So I can rotate it, and the "bottom" is always close *enough* to level.
05:35:04 Devastator: do you just need to know all the angles?
05:35:49 syv: One face of a cube is rotated 90° around the center from any adjacent face.
05:36:03 Devastator: well.. I'd recommend starting from a vertex instead of an edge, personally.
05:36:21 Devastator: then you make five triangles around that vertext.
05:37:10 syv: It's sort of problematic, I have to rotate each face independantly.
05:37:42 Devastator: ahh, so you need more than12 points.
05:42:13 syv: For the cube I only needed the center of the cube, and the relative rotatation around the center for each face, which is simple enough.
05:42:37 syv: But I only know that because a cube's shape is... simple and intuitive. I don't grok icosahedrons, really.
05:42:46 syv: Annoyingly I forgot to bring one to work, too.
05:43:42 Devastator: Well.. I can give you the angles.
05:44:01 Devastator: but from a center..
05:44:06 Devastator: I think that can be done, yeah.
05:44:16 syv: I'm playing with it right now, but if you give me angles that might help? I can plug things in and figure it out as I go.
05:44:43 syv: You don't need to, I was more just randomly talking about what I'm doing.
05:45:44 Devastator: well, firstly, there is no exact value.
05:46:01 Devastator: any value in decimal coordinates will be an approximation.
05:47:08 syv: It's not very important, it's much much larger than the player, and since they're inside, with the actual shapes outside, the shapes themselves can clip into each other.
05:47:45 syv: I want it mathematically precise only so that I can do it relatively quickly, and hopefully understand the shape a bit better as well.
05:48:14 syv: Teeechnically I could probably do it by hand, working out some way to build references, but that would be slow, and would make modifying the design a bitch.
05:48:39 Devastator: Yeah, i still recommend working from a vertex as the bottom point instead of a plane.
05:48:59 syv: I don't know how to! But I can get the coordinates for a vertex?
05:49:13 Devastator: one vertex will be at 0,0,0
05:49:27 Devastator: you define the triangles as any three points from that.
05:50:17 Devastator: ugh, but you have to copy faces..
05:50:38 Devastator: well, the angle between two faces is lemme look it up..
05:51:23 Devastator: the angle from an arbritrary center point is..
05:53:34 Devastator: do note that it gets very messy because they're all in different directions from each other.
05:54:14 Devastator: if you can make a block of five, you can mirror that, and then you need a ring around the middle which can be seperated into pairs.
05:54:28 Devastator: I don't know if making the ring would be easier.
05:56:41 ER: for
syv, the highest level of difficulty is described with a "that's not how this works you little shit"
05:59:01 Devastator: looks failry arbritrary and capricious. I'd be willing to give it a shot, but expect boredrom.
05:59:15 Devastator: I'm just not that good at godgames. ;-p
05:59:22 Devastator: (It does look good for that, btw.)
06:01:26 syv: Gods should be capricious, I suppose.
06:01:37 Devastator: Goddamn it, Beatrice.
06:03:06 Devastator: Specifically, I might change the 2 for 2 ambition project to be like a 'it was there once, but it was not to be', like it was gone as soon as you turned around, so to speak.
06:04:07 ER: 2 for 2... but would that be meaningfully different from "nothing happens"?
06:04:58 Devastator: Not really, except for things like ruins, remains, corpses, or maybe raw materials.
06:18:43 Devastator: unfortunately two of the people in birdgame got banned.
06:21:10 Devastator: no, had it mixed up. Blazing wasn't actually playing that.
06:21:40 Devastator: god though, I can't read that these days. Too embarassing.
06:22:12 syv: Ahh, okay. Nun I forgot about.
06:22:40 syv: I remembered Harry and Toaster, and was worried.
06:22:54 syv: And then for the later birdgame, I think that was us, and Dubs?
06:23:10 Devastator: the PM one had you,
MJ, and dubs.
06:23:13 Devastator: basically just the crew.
06:23:32 Devastator: maybe I should have continued that, but I didn't have the motivation I have with Extinction.
06:24:04 ER: Toaster is currently playing the mario cart game!
06:24:37 ER: mushroom cart game needs more players but I presume you're not interested,
syv?
06:24:59 syv: Eh, I guess I might not be against it.
06:25:14 Devastator: It's pretty good, I just got murdered by rules changes. ;-p
06:27:05 ER: basically a simple d6 system with preset actions most of the time, easy enough to play and post actions quickly
06:27:19 ER: but some level of skill involved in knowing the rules
06:27:28 ER: but probably more luck overall~
06:27:54 syv: Ugh, I'm trying to figure out what the proper centroid of an equilateral triangle is, to check if this scripting system even has it correct, and the only article I can find which gives a way to calculate it... gives a different answer? But also seems to give wrong points for the vertexes, which I can verify, and seem to be entirely correct in-game?
06:28:33 syv: Working with anything that isn't cubes in this game's scripting system is just upsetting.
06:28:49 syv: Especially since there's genuinely errors in it which must be accounted for.
06:29:13 syv: I've never messed with triangles before, so I need to test them to make sure calculations are correct.
06:29:38 Devastator: Most rendering engines are all about triangles.
06:30:18 syv: Honestly, I don't even know how it handles triangles relative to a rendering system.
06:30:30 syv: I have to work with fucking _quaternions_ for rotation, which is the worst
06:30:47 syv: Which ALWAYS add at least seven digits
06:31:02 syv: Unless they conver 0 to -7e9
06:31:16 Devastator: Quaternions, the most pain in the ass things that are geuninely useful.
06:31:19 syv: That literally fucking happens.
06:31:39 Devastator: I remember a vid on numberphile that was about the discovery of them.
06:31:43 Devastator: well, the invention of them.
06:31:50 syv: Maybe I should watch that.
06:31:56 syv: Did it explain anything about how they work?
06:32:01 syv: I still don't really get it.
06:32:31 Devastator: it was on numberphile, so it wasn't in-depth, but it might be helpful.
06:34:48 Devastator: that wasn't the discovery video, acutally, they must have more than one vid on them.
06:35:52 syv: The mapping system in this game by writing all the values Unity internally uses to define an object. For location and scale, it's three floats each for dimensions and location along xyz axes. For rotation, it's four floats for quaternion rotation. All just written in a row, with commas separating them.
06:36:23 syv: There's various tools which assist editing, like the rotate-around-point tool that is just invaluable.
06:37:00 syv: Even better, every object is handled according to its origin, which... were all hand-defined by the modder who introduced the system.
06:37:43 syv: Most of the definitions are fairly accurate as in about 1% off or so, but they vary in weird, stupid ways. Sometimes the origin is at the center. Sometimes at the bottom.
06:38:00 syv: Then for a rare few special objects it IS way off and is just out in fucking space to the left or something
06:39:31 syv: I've mentioned before that this game is basically a truly awful coder's crap code cobbled together until it mostly functioned, then duct taped together by a slightly-less crap modder, then partially refactored by a similarly mediocre modder?
06:39:59 syv: And at some point in there it was obfuscated then de-pbfuscsted
06:40:28 Devastator: no, he's getting to the invention story now.
06:40:30 Devastator: so this is the vid.
06:42:13 Devastator: I also think you might need more professional assistance than some rando on IRC.
06:47:29 Devastator: got to a video in that guy's SC2 play where he can't research techs, and he's complaining that there's no anti-air unit that can keep up with the unusual vultures he's using.
06:47:33 Devastator: and I want to say 'wraiths'
06:47:39 Devastator: but wraiths are never used in SC2.
06:52:31 syv: This video is really, really good, thank you
06:59:41 syv: "The property you lose is thi--" *video ends*
07:00:00 syv: Yeah, that's way above my head, but makes quaternions make a lot more sense.
07:00:37 syv: I kinda abstratly knew they were useful for lots of stuff, but had no comprehension at all of what the numbers actually *mean*
07:00:53 Devastator: the extra footage video covers what you lose.
07:17:49 syv: Yep, the fucking midpoint of the triangles is wrong.
07:18:36 Devastator: because of course it is.
07:21:29 syv: Means I need to calculate the offset... but it might not be too bad, since functionally the rotation itself is agnostic to the object's true origin. It just means there's one less thing I can read and understand.
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07:44:13 MidJag: fuck I'm drunk. I always forget how much the alumni drink.
07:44:56 Devastator: going to play a quick surviv game or two with
syv.
07:45:17 MidJag: oh cool, did I tell you I got another interview invite?
07:45:53 MidJag: Aned whars the long weekend for?
07:50:27 syv: Killed a last survivor with dual m9s, ahaha
07:50:29 Devastator: Canadian Thanksgiving.
07:50:41 MidJag: oh cool, I forgot that was in october
07:50:46 Devastator: although do credit all the melee damage and the dual shotguns I got in. ;-p
07:54:49 ER: what is it like to be drunk?
07:55:21 MidJag: Though it depends on the company, you gotta get drunk in hte right situtation or else you just hate it
07:56:04 ER: I don't want company though
07:56:19 MidJag: But uhh being drunk lets you shut off aproximetly half of your brain and operate mostly on instinct without needing to think too much
07:56:30 Devastator: Nuts, guy got me a little bit too heavy.
07:56:57 ER: that sounds like my normal mode of operation
mj. at least when I'm depressed.
07:56:58 syv: Were you the guy who got hit in the red?
07:57:12 Devastator: looks like the team won anyway, so it's ok.
07:57:15 syv: The wow was the nearly finished bandage.
07:57:27 MidJag: To me Alcholol mostly just acts as a mood enchancer.
07:57:42 Devastator: too bad, had a nice duel with a guy with a sword and Vector.
07:57:43 MidJag: So whatever mood I'm already in is probably getting maginified
07:57:59 syv: I spectated our teammate with dual glocks.
07:58:05 syv: Who was possibly the opposite of helpful.
08:01:04 ER: hey
mj, wanna read the RTD godgame rules I just wrote
08:01:37 Devastator: enemy medic came up from behind with a mac-10
08:01:45 MidJag: uhhh I'll be honest I'm having to close one eye to read this screen, but sure
08:02:49 Devastator: commander has an AWM-s
08:03:59 ER: well, it might not make much sense, sorry
08:05:10 Devastator: our team's commander.
08:05:20 Devastator: had an AWM-s, but did not play well for teams.
08:05:23 Devastator: was that you second to last?
08:06:13 Devastator: anyway, I think one more.
08:06:19 syv: I went down to the right of the lonea
08:06:57 MidJag: this seems confusing but very intresting
ER
08:08:13 ER: it's fairly simple, just different d6 tables depending on how hard the thing is
08:08:49 ER: it'll require deciding how ambitious each action is, but... well, any godgame requires something like that
08:08:57 MidJag: To be fair simple concepts are hard rn
08:10:29 MidJag: hmm, I should probably go to bed
08:12:32 Devastator: it seems pretty hard to miss with the lone survivor mac-10
08:13:24 Devastator: 50v50 can be fun, but it's not my favorite mode, sorry.
08:13:27 syv: I should carry dual G18s next time I do 50v50.
08:13:33 syv: Nah, I don't much like it either.
08:14:09 Devastator: Shoulda picked up that bugler instead of trying to snipe with your last 3 bullets. ;-p
08:14:33 Devastator: I got dropped by the enemy commander, but I got a few good nades.
08:14:36 syv: I lost my mosin for a M249 right after, so eh.
08:14:47 syv: Not so good at sifting through the loot on a battleground.
08:15:08 Devastator: ahh, yeah, that's tough.
08:15:10 syv: If we make logins we might get people in 2v2.
08:16:01 Devastator: It'll hurt, but I might have to do that in the end.
08:16:09 Devastator: next time we play I'll do that.
08:18:06 Devastator: or whatever my number is.
08:21:33 Devastator: and my 10,000 potatoes.
08:23:00 syv: Doesn't that change whenever you join?
08:23:22 Devastator: No. The game is fully capable of tracking players through browser info.
08:23:29 syv: You could name your account "surviv#6728911"
08:23:43 Devastator: If it's a legal number, yes.
08:23:48 Devastator: although I'd want to go with my actual name.
08:24:09 syv: And I will return to being Nameless Sidekick.
08:24:36 Devastator: well, next time we play.
09:04:54 syv: I wonder if I could play two games of Dark Souls simultaneously.
09:05:07 syv: Somehow hook a controller up to two instances of the game :v
09:07:12 syv: Troublesome to set up, but I think the game itself might be playable?
09:08:38 syv: One controller controls both characters.
09:09:12 syv: I assume much of the game would be synchronized. Bosses would be problematic.
09:09:24 syv: ...Inventory management as well too, possibly.
09:09:47 Devastator: open while the other is loading.
09:09:57 Devastator: do it blindfolded first.
09:10:21 syv: Blindfolded is _much_ harder
09:13:52 Devastator: vertex coordinates for the icosahedron are easy.
09:14:32 syv: Was just looking for finding the center coordinate.
09:15:16 Devastator: no, there are 12 vertices.
09:15:25 Devastator: one at 0, +1, and +chi
09:15:31 Devastator: one at 0, -1, and +chi
09:15:42 Devastator: one at 0, +1, and -chi
09:15:57 Devastator: I think in taht set the center coordinate is at 0,0,0, as it's symmetric.
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09:16:47 Devastator: (also, it's phi, not chi. Gah.)
09:16:58 syv: Well, the issue is, the only coordinates I can manually define are parts of the faces.
09:18:49 Devastator: yeah, you could substitute that with the middle of each triangle.
09:27:39 Devastator: you want the locations of the middle of the triangle, right?
09:27:47 Devastator: and we have the vertex locations?
09:28:06 Devastator: since they're all equilateral, you just take half the distance in each direction.
09:28:12 syv: Only half paying attention, working on it.
09:28:27 syv: "Half the distance in each direction"?
09:28:53 Devastator: it's the point tangent to each midpoint.
09:31:34 Devastator: so halfway along one face, and (sqrt 3)/2 of the way up.
09:32:44 syv: Ahhh, sqrt3/2 is the number I need.
09:33:33 syv: Wait I fucking had that earlier why did I forget
09:34:16 Devastator: too close to the problems.
09:46:58 syv: This took way more work than is at all reasonable.
09:47:15 syv: IE I was being very stupid about it.
09:47:49 syv: But now that I have it, it makes things simpler.
09:49:19 Devastator: I should go call someone up at the college.
09:49:48 Devastator: just imagining. Someone would know the right name for the shape in question.
09:50:06 syv: I'd feel a little bad if you called someone up just to help me with my meme mapmaking.
09:50:42 syv: This ain't anything serious, it's just me getting overly obsessed with an idea.
09:51:10 Devastator: yeah, but it's a question.
09:52:23 Devastator: I mentioned a meme map from a racing game to one several years ago, and the guy was extremely interested in the space it described.
09:52:46 Devastator: I mean, it's a geometer and you're talking about an exploration of space.
10:02:42 syv: You tempt me to animate it ;p
10:03:44 Devastator: I just want to see you drive players insane.
10:05:33 syv: I'll have to invite people when I finish this.
10:05:40 syv: Record the reactions I get.
10:06:03 syv: The nice thing is, I can delay the rotation so it only starts, say, after they've flown around a bit and seen the basic shape.
10:06:34 syv: "Oh cool so you made a ball that's a forest on the inside, this is a weird but cool ide--wait what the fuck it's MOVING?"
10:11:13 syv: Thank you, BTW. You definitely helped a good bit.
10:13:50 Devastator: you did like all the work.
10:13:55 Devastator: as in all the work.
10:18:07 Devastator: also, I think beds are 8s and cloth is §
10:24:26 syv: Cloth is that, yeah. I don't think phi is... used?
10:25:00 syv: Gah it's been too long since I've played.
10:25:36 syv: I think beds are 0 with a dot or something, though.
10:25:38 Devastator: phi isn't used that, and cloth and silk both have the same icon.
10:25:48 Devastator: I wasn't sure of that.
10:25:59 syv: I WANT to say bed has just a horizontal line across the middle of an O shape.
10:27:50 syv: Phi *is* on the table, it seems. #237.
10:28:21 Devastator: yeah, that sounds right.
10:28:23 Devastator: lemme go fire it up.
10:29:29 Devastator: Yup, looking at one.
10:29:56 syv: Phi also looks very odd on code page 437.
10:30:29 syv: Looks like they just gave up on depicting it quite accurately.
10:37:11 syv: Yeaaaah, this is looking reasonable to finish.
10:38:05 syv: I need to do a hand alignment to reorient, and should be a little more precise with my calculations, but I've got it to the point I can just select a face and rotate it to cover all the remaining faces.
10:46:26 Devastator: the end, it is in sight
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10:47:03 syv: The seams are from slight inaccuracies with my points (I measured them roughly in game), and are acceptable besides; I can just make them wider and longer than they need to be, and the excess will be invisible due to players being inside.
10:47:24 syv: Pretty much if I did this with the full scale map, I'd be done now.
10:47:32 er: Laying in bed, feeling 50% like I'm bored wanna do stuff
10:47:34 syv: Though the full scale is more troublesome to work with.
10:47:44 er: 50% like 5 more minutes please
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21:29:39 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Fleshorrors dream of feline BASS
21:29:39 Topic set by syv [Saturday 22 May 2021, 04:44:55]
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