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02:43:38 ER: have all the love you want then!
02:44:33 ER: from me, from sophia, from weillste, from all my weird murderhobo dark souls characters...
02:46:30 ER: still want to run like five different games to the point that I can't just pick one but I feel the need to explain the deep lore of the dungeon crawly one
02:47:43 syv: I think I would appreciate a hug from any of those characters, yeah.
02:47:52 syv: Go ahead, I always like your lore.
02:48:28 ER: at the time of the game, it's been half a century since the great war, which was fought between the wizarding association which controlled the world, and legions of paladins, many of them abberations mutated by wizard science, and fueled by the justness of their cause
02:49:34 ER: today things are relatively peaceful. the paladin order is a worldwide organization which does itse best to keep people safe and prevent anyone from practicing wizardy
02:50:52 ER: but the remains of the wizarding establishment still remain, in cursed places, old research sites, and battlefields where the remains of the war still restlessly pace
02:51:54 ER: and these are dungeons. They come in all shapes and sizes, but they're everywhere and most likely a profit of some kind can be made going into them
02:54:16 ER: Just possessing that knowledge could be done by anyone, and wizardy spells are a bit janky and bad for the enviroment, but their efffects are morally neutral
02:54:48 ER: you would not have to be evil to become a wizard, and being a wizard would not alone make you evil
02:55:15 ER: though absolute mortality isn't quite at play, anyways
02:55:38 ER: the gods are still around, and they're pretty much pissed at all the players involved
02:56:46 ER: the kind of magic that the paladins banned includes clerical and druidic magic, which use the same prenciples as wizardy but use them differently
02:57:10 ER: so the gods are pissed that paladins are keeping people from doing holy magic
02:57:34 ER: but they were also pissed at the wizards who were blatantly messing with nature
02:58:56 syv: Wait, Paladins banned holy magic?
02:59:03 syv: And the gods dislike them?
02:59:49 ER: but yeah, there are two types of magic, really. Source, drawing from your own power, and Enviromental, changing and utilizing the world around you. paladins and sorcerers use Source, while wizards cleric and druids use enviromental
03:00:48 ER: The paladins don't gain their power from any god, but from the strength of their convictions. And they will put mortal life above the gods
03:02:42 ER: you could maybe call them just a bunch of stuck-up sorcerers, if you wanted to make them mad
03:04:29 ER: for the good of -mankind- sapients and also FUCK WIZARDS
03:05:36 ER: naturally, it's very possible that a player character or two will be a wizard
03:06:57 ER: the ability to freely bend the laws of reality to your whims is balanced by the angry fullplate boys with the power of freindship who remember what happend when there were too many people like you.
03:09:49 syv: Would some of the players *also* be paladins?
03:10:45 ER: the way it works if that some characters are rolled with professions and goals and such, and player 1 picks one of those characters
03:11:49 ER: and then as an option of preperation, player1 can recruit an addditional player as an ally, who also picks a character
03:12:57 ER: so paladin working with wizard would be the result of people intentionally putting those characters together, and they would have compatable goals in the same dungeon
03:13:22 ER: and the wizard could try to keep its wizardness secret when paladins are watching
03:16:27 syv: Oh, that's a pretty interesting mechanic!
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03:16:47 ER: nah, you can keep recruiting
03:17:01 Elasticly_Rigid: Basically it costs gold
03:17:35 Elasticly_Rigid: But it's possible to go positive on gold if you find a noble or something
03:17:47 Elasticly_Rigid is now known as er
03:20:42 syv: "Let's take an antiquarian into the dungeon! They'll find us more awesome loot!"
03:21:20 er: 5 gold base, +2 for middle social class, +0 for low, +5 for wealthy. Noble or merchant jobs give more as well.
03:21:49 er: Costs 2 gold to add a PC, and they don't get the 5 base.
03:22:59 er: So net neutral gold value if you get a middle commoner, in essense you've givin them their base 2 gold.
03:23:59 er: If you pick up a noble, you overall gain money for the expedition, which could let you bring even more characters
03:24:41 er: At the cost of having everything footed by a clueless rich guy
03:27:27 syv: Though "clueless rich guy" is a bit meaningless if it's a player character, they're likely no more clueless than the other players.
03:27:52 syv: Would nobles have mechanics to make them more of a hundrance?
03:30:14 er: Worse stats from profession
03:30:35 er: Less able to defend self, basically
03:31:18 er: Also generally players are either okay at roleplaying or are potato useless regardless of role
03:34:22 er: Cuz one idea would be to harness the delicious rp anger and channel that into the ability to just walk through like a couple badasses with overloaded immaculate soul
03:35:04 er: IS *seems* to be usable to keep footing.
03:35:09 syv: Passives don't scale off anything besides level in general.
03:35:36 syv: IS is very odd and variable and I don't like thinking about it. ;-;
03:36:57 er: Will my chances going through the whirl be improved if they engage in a passionate embrace before entering
03:40:59 syv: If you're passionately embracing while going through the whirlpool that will improve your chances of not being separated, mostly for physics reasons.
03:41:07 syv: It may also improve your chances of getting laid.
03:41:21 syv: Beyond those two things, no, I don't think there's a great deal of benefit to be had.
03:42:45 er: Sounds pretty significant to me
03:44:37 syv: Since when do *you* care about getting laid?
03:48:57 er: I dunno, it seems like it could be beneficial
03:51:41 syv: Strictly speaking, falling in love is a bad thing for magical girls.
03:52:22 syv: Magical girls are all about sustain, and young love is usually a big power bump followed by a big depression when it doesn't work out.
03:53:45 er: Trading life for happiness is valid
03:55:30 er: And hey, significant boost to both if it works.
03:56:28 syv: I wonder if I should make it canon that the most powerful MGs in history were lesbians. I suppose it's logical.
03:56:52 syv: And love stories are, like, cheating as far as making people like them.
03:57:46 er: Just look at literally the thing your game is based off of.
03:58:34 er: Death, entropy, and suffering: the love story!
03:59:05 er: Better tale than romeo and juliet tbh
03:59:57 syv: Romeo and Juliet is just a really common story that actually happens, so easy to empathize with and therefore enjoy.
04:00:11 syv: Also, waaaay far back in history, so done to death ever since.
04:01:28 er: Not sure why anyone would consume a story about things that really happen
04:02:01 er: You have to at least add some mecha to keep things interesting.
04:03:03 syv: Some of my favorite stories have been about things that really happen.
04:07:21 er: Yer garden variety tragic take can be improved by some EXPLOSITION
04:10:05 er: Why am I still here just to suffer?
04:28:03 Devastator: I'll upkate k-com this weekend. Probably tomorrow and if needed sunday night.
04:34:27 syv: I should prolly post, then.
04:51:06 Devastator: That would help, yes.
05:23:07 Devastator: welp, more extinction.
05:27:03 Devastator: I'm glad you guys are having fun.
05:27:21 Devastator: There's one big advantage that I'm wondering if you guys have realized yet.
05:36:23 syv: The most obvious huge advantage we have is that we're on the defensive and have a chunky health bar.
05:36:45 syv: Kaiju gotta wreck a LOT of cities to win, we just have to get up to a point where we're breaking even in fighta/
05:37:18 syv: ...You prolly mean extinction.
05:37:51 syv: Nah, I dunno. It has the feel of a call to heroism, where we're kinda just going to win regardless.
05:45:47 Devastator: Nah, not going to happen that way. It's easy to start with, but things will get harder. You're still in tutorial land, but I'll open up the possibility of dying as soon as you get to this guy's papers.
05:45:57 Devastator: because that's where the game really was going to start in some ways.
06:05:15 Devastator: It's still wrong to have dragon warrior music over a final fantasy ad.
07:58:37 syv: If I have shadowclaw research a +range modkit which uses K-fat, and then he finishes the design and sent the design to me, would I have to spend a unit of K-fat when copying over the design so that I can manufacture it?
08:06:21 Devastator: no, not for copying a blueprint.
08:06:26 Devastator: yes for building one.
08:08:17 syv: Can I get a time estimate on how long it'd take to make a general application +range modkit with an upper limit of B?
08:09:17 syv: Yeah, not limited to jets, because Shadowclaw doesn't have that design.
08:09:56 syv: And if he *did* have the jet design, and made it only work with jets?
08:10:42 Devastator: about three, four months.
08:11:09 syv: Add in a kbit to it? Eh, that's not getting down to one month, is it?
08:12:27 syv: Well, there goes that plan.
08:13:22 syv: At this point it sounds like just making stronger artillery pieces is the way to go.
08:13:33 syv: Something quick and useful.
08:13:46 Devastator: sounds like fun for the next good aoe weapon.. ;-p
08:14:21 syv: Artillery will be used regardless, because people use artillery.
08:14:45 syv: It's hardly putting a lot of baskets in one egg if he spends two months making better arty.
08:14:49 Devastator: I could say that about literally any choice for weapons systems.. there's a lot of variety in kaiju weapons.
08:15:14 Devastator: low firepower to cost, mostly.
08:15:56 Devastator: you've got the stats, you know they're very pricy compared to arty.
08:16:20 syv: Jets are D/E with ammo short, versus tanks' E/E with huge stats everywhere.
08:16:32 syv: Flier and speed are some of the jet markup.
08:16:41 syv: But unless tanks are being sold almost at-cost...
08:17:08 syv: Jeez, Obselete tanks are E across the board. Every stat.
08:17:45 Devastator: It's not none, but the markup is much less than for jets.
08:17:49 Devastator: Jets have a huge markup.
08:17:59 syv: Actually, yeah, that's prolly it. 150 or 125 to manufacture obseletes, 175 or 200 for moderns.
08:19:29 syv: Speed is both top speed *and* manueverability, right?
08:19:49 Devastator: they're the same thing.
08:20:05 syv: I know, but just thinking about the relative stats.
08:20:32 syv: Transport planes are -+2, so E, same as tanks and less than trucks.
08:21:00 syv: Which... seems really odd.
08:21:06 Devastator: That's mostly for balance reasons.
08:21:18 syv: But they *are* much less mobile, don't turn nearly as well.
08:21:56 Devastator: I mean, they aren't the same in the real world, but they are the same in game, so..
08:27:35 Devastator: also, truck speed is where the least accurate of the kaiju weapons can miss. I didn't want that to be a possibility for transport planes.
08:33:39 syv: Then again, I guess E/E armor/durability isn't amazing either.
08:34:27 syv: E/E offense seems pretty decent, though. ._.
08:34:37 Devastator: in general, anything C or above is the point where it goes from weakish to strongish.
08:35:15 syv: Man, is speed like 40% of the cost of jets?
08:36:27 Devastator: they're 200, right?
08:36:39 Devastator: yes if you include speed + flier.
08:42:13 syv: Because that means they're A rank.
08:43:12 syv: How did
ER make ERA armor in such a short period, if range + would take a year if ir goes past C?
08:43:28 syv: ERA applies to anything, and stacks with another modkit too.
08:43:35 Devastator: A year is a gross understaatement.
08:43:44 Devastator: applies to everything includes infantry sized weapons.
08:43:51 Devastator: B range infantry weapons are night-impossible.
08:44:27 Devastator: If you tried, you'd be informed as to the problem.
08:47:02 syv: Maybe I should just do turn one--Shadowclaw gets me jet design.
08:47:02 Devastator: Range in particular is more favored for large units than Power.
08:47:14 syv: Turn 2 & 3, shadowclaw researches a modkit for me.
08:47:44 syv: Two turns with the design and his HEP thinger should be enough to get it out.
08:48:13 syv: It also spares me from building a third lab.
08:48:28 syv: Though I am really unsure if that's a *bad* idea.
08:48:41 Devastator: yeah, should be able to do that. You're looking for range +1, right?
08:48:56 syv: Range +1, max B, includes a kfat.
08:48:57 Devastator: and specific to the jet.
08:49:10 syv: And specific to the jet *and* derivative designs.
08:50:18 Devastator: do note you'll still need another increase to get to B.
08:50:40 syv: Going to start researching jets with +1 range this turn.
08:52:15 Devastator: so it's 3 turns for both halves.
08:52:45 syv: Though I'm also doing a removal of ammo-short, which I think bumps it up to 4.
08:52:59 syv: Though then maybe it goes down to 3 for bulk research discount.
08:53:39 Devastator: Nah, that'd put it at 5 to do both.
08:54:09 syv: Doesn't that mean there's no advantage to doing both at the same time?
08:54:10 Devastator: ammo short is 2, but I think it went down with the bulk discount with something else.
08:54:16 syv: I might as well do one then the other.
08:54:27 Devastator: No advantage in research time.
08:54:38 Devastator: pricing might go up an extra 25 if you split the projects.
08:54:44 Devastator: It shouldn't with your example.
08:54:50 Devastator: but in another situation it might.
08:55:29 Devastator: Is that an angry ugh or a happy ugh?
08:55:43 syv: This is the most frustrating variety of puzzle, so I'm going to just stop thinking about it and go with the suboptimal plan anyway.
08:56:10 Devastator: should I be ashamed or proud?
08:57:02 syv: The frustrating aspect comes from you giving me information, but only after I've formulated a full plan.
08:57:33 syv: I can't mess with the puzzle pieces precisely, I can guess at their positions and ask if that's correct, getting a yes or no.
08:57:46 syv: So I can always know if I'm wrong.
08:57:51 syv: But in the least helpful way.
08:57:58 Devastator: but if I gave you the info you'd pour ovet it for a month and wouldn't ever decide on anything.
08:58:06 Devastator: maybe I should just stop answering questions.
08:58:28 syv: If you gave me the guts of the system I'd pore over it and decide on something.
08:58:43 Devastator: no choice paralysis?
08:59:13 syv: It might not be correct, but I'd have strong arguments for why it's correct, and if given reason why it's incorrect, I'd be able to use that informaton.
08:59:26 syv: Nah, no choice paralysis. This is a solid numbers game.
08:59:49 syv: It's not like Cabal, where the problem is more that none of the choices really matter.
09:01:10 Devastator: maybe I should stop answering questions.
09:04:14 Devastator: sorry, but the system has guts but not guts I really want to show to everyone.
09:04:43 Devastator: so maybe I should just be quiet, turn the difficulty down about 10% or so, and let you see.
09:04:49 Devastator: I wouldn't mind showing them to someone not playing.
09:05:14 syv: You don't know anyone else who'd want to see when not playing. -.-
09:06:40 syv: No,
MJ would not be interested in the mechanical guts of a system he's not playing.
09:06:47 syv:
RC, maybe, but I doubt it.
09:07:10 Devastator: I'm not speaking hypothetically about
MJ.
09:07:16 syv: Both would look if you asked them to--perhaps not
MJ, since he cannot into time management--but wouldn't want to because it's interesting to them.
09:07:33 Devastator: and that last qualifier sounds a bit unfair.
09:07:38 syv: Yeah, and I'm saying he looked because you asked him to.
09:08:50 Devastator: "Do you want to look at some of the guts of kaiju-com?"
09:09:50 Devastator: I mean.. yeah, asked, but what do you expect?
09:12:42 Devastator: anyway, sorry for the frustration.
09:13:03 syv: I expect "sure", because
MJ will say sure for basically anything you ask of him that he has time for and isn't painful.
09:13:24 Devastator: Valencite is a good name.
09:13:57 Devastator: I should make a joke about higher orbitals when doing that research.
09:14:41 syv: I figured it sounded appropriately psuedoscientific for an X-Com inspired game.
09:15:36 Devastator: Thanks for posting.
09:16:25 syv: I'm gonna go take a shower.
09:16:31 syv: Anything else you want beforehand?
09:18:38 Devastator: just tallying up the ammo research, and yeah, three months.
09:18:59 Devastator: the third project is localizing the blueprint for Shadowclaw.
09:19:39 syv: I might edit that and change it to arty, if I can talk with him again.
09:19:45 syv: I kinda doubt it matters really.
09:20:01 syv: But if he can't commit for three months, well...
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09:21:50 Devastator: SC does have a large lab, for the record.
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19:22:12 er: Not very entertaining without sound
19:22:52 er: And I'm too paranoid to listen to anything without headphones :p
19:25:54 Devastator: it's just a guy talking about a game
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21:40:09 er: Shall have to try writing a system for the dungeoncrawl game clawing its way around my head
21:41:02 er: Present thought: elves don't age, so they get more gold but less courage
21:41:38 er: Starting gold represents time and resources and, well, elves get more time
21:42:21 er: But they're also a little paranoid because only violence kills them
21:46:11 Devastator: sounds interesting.
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