00:17:23 Devastator: and.. nope, not a 9.
00:42:16 ER: what dice did you use again? 1d8?
00:44:32 Devastator: needed an 11 or 12 to get a silver doing that action, but you have +2.
00:44:41 Devastator: +1 for Urban Exploration, and +1 for charming.
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02:02:26 syv: "Nope, not a nine." "What die do you use again? 1D8?"
02:03:08 ER: well, I knew we probably had a +1
02:09:39 ER: I'm reading a fan-made zelda roleplaying system
02:10:21 syv: 1d0 is identical to 1d1-1, yes?
02:10:55 ER: and I was also arguing with oz about a mechanic from it.
02:11:01 syv: 1d1-1 seems like the superior die.
02:11:18 syv: I don't know anything about this but I consider him wrong by default.
02:12:00 Devastator: 1d0 is meaningless.
02:12:05 ER: I made an amused observation about something, he complained about roleplaying systems and also one piece for some reason, I calmly explained that the mechanic wasn't what he thought, then he bitched back with a "how was I supposed to know that before you explained it?"
02:12:18 syv: It's one side reading zero, no?
02:12:27 syv: Just as 1d1 is one side reading 1.
02:13:23 Devastator: it's one die with zero sides.
02:14:13 ER: that would destroy the universe, right?
02:14:30 ER: zero possable universes after the roll
02:16:13 syv: I was thinking in terms of the number expressing the largest possible result, I.E. "largest possible result of 1"; I'd consider a six sided die printed with only ones, twos, and threes to be a 1d3, not a 1d6
02:16:52 syv: Which means it would be possible to have a 1d0, but also means a 1d6 could roll only 6.
02:18:33 syv: Or the "cheating at RTD" version, 5,5,5,5,5,6
02:19:27 ER: what if we played a dnd where there are no stats and stuff because it wouldn't matter; we roll a d20 with 19 ones and 1 twenty
02:20:18 syv: That would be very interesting if the players are the only ones who are allowed to know, and the effect exclusively happens around them for rolls that would normally be attempted.
02:20:56 syv: It would be a very different kind of game, doing your best to never take any action which can be rolled for, and luring enemies into doing things.
02:21:43 syv: Enemies would become utterly trivial, killing themselves before they can touch you.
02:21:53 syv: But a locked door would be nigh insurmountable.
02:22:19 ER: if you throw enough goblins at the players eventually enough will crit to be an issue.
02:22:19 syv: Wizards, being able to do things with no role, would be even more OP than tney always are. Which is a rather impressive feat.
02:23:12 syv: "I roll diplomacy at the goblins to encourage them to attack me more"?
02:23:47 syv: Hmm, D&D but on a Doom-style random number table.
02:24:06 syv: Guaranteed random, the DM prerolled all results before the game with his own dice.
02:24:45 syv: ...I actually kinda want to play a game built around that. Add some mechanics for altering and manipulating the roll table.
02:25:07 ER: some people do that for dnd
02:25:25 ER: roll a bunch of times, write them down and use them when you would roll.
02:25:44 ER: far too easy to meta, or at least too hard to not-meta
02:26:14 syv: Yeah, I mean exactly that, with the table looping. The point becomes that you *want* to meta.
02:26:33 syv: Add a mechanic like being able to swap or change numbers, with the knowledge that they'll come back later.
02:26:49 syv: Fill the table up with high numbers, the enemies roll high too.
02:27:07 syv: Take actions to waste rolls, so you can skip over bad numbers.
02:27:28 ER: I did consider an RTD where you just get to choose what you roll, with Consequences if you end up with an uneven distribution
02:30:16 syv: Too simple to game, if the consequences don't tick very often. Keep track yourself and take a few useless actions now and then.
02:30:22 syv: Would just end up a chore very rapidly.
02:37:58 syv: So what was this zelda mechanic that pissed Ozymandias off?
02:39:45 ER: flirt: rolls Guile + Influence vs enemy Concentration, if you succeed then the enemy can't target you for a turn
02:43:02 ER: it's pretty much the only combat move which uses those two stats, so I speculated that it's intended for pure social characters with nothing in the way of direct combat to have a way to defend themselves
02:43:35 ER: then oz complained about social characters being able to be just as "badass" as combat characters and how that invalidated combat characters
02:46:31 Devastator: Eh, I could make that argument.
02:46:37 Devastator: except as posted flirt is a combat move.
02:46:48 Devastator: so the social characters are combat characters.
02:49:06 ER: technically correct. the best kind of correct.
02:49:21 syv: Eh, giving noncombat characters a combat move is pretty reasonable in a game with lots of combat. Same way some systems give combat characters ways to leverage their combat ability in social contexts, usually through intimidation.
02:49:29 syv: Making said combat move *flirt* is dumb.
02:49:49 ER: seriously though, rules-as-written that's pretty much the only useful thing those stats do in combat, and they only effect one enemy, to protect only you, or one round
02:50:56 ER: eh, it's a cartoony setting, and it's vague enough to mean whatever you like.
02:51:44 ER: smile and wave at the crab to make it too conflicted to attack you. Because crabs totally understand such cues, because it's a cartoony setting.
02:52:32 syv: Yeah, it's far from invalidating combat characters, though to be fair as you described it Oz wouldn't have known quite enough to say it didn't invalidate anyone. He certainly didn't know enough to *say that it did*, either, but that's where him being a grump jerk comes in.
02:57:27 ER: I asked why he got pissy when I was being nice and explaining it to him, and he said he thought I was antagonizing him in some vague thing I said
02:58:07 ER: he's just far too grumpy and combative.
02:58:22 syv: And he thinks you're the problem, of course.
02:59:05 ER: He thinks the problem is anyone who calls him out on his shit.
03:00:37 ER: he seems to get along with
PW, because
PW just acknowledges that he's a grumpy jerk and doesn't try to change him. :P
03:02:56 ER: my main concern with this system is that it may be too complex in trying to emulate all the main mechanics in a pretty complex open-world video game
03:04:49 ER: tho a lot of that is content, I'm sure
03:56:04 syv: I didn't notice you posted that!
03:56:28 syv: I have a 60+ page system from Dubs that he asked me to read, so that takes priority. And I'm like a week late on that.
03:57:00 ER: counting feats, if you wanted to min-max for it, you could protect yourself and one ally of your choice from two enemies using flirt
03:57:59 ER: one give you Knack for a specific manuver, which means advantage OR do the thing twice with different targets, another feat lets you binefit yourself and one other with social manuvers
03:59:03 syv: Shouldn't that mean you can defend two allies, and yourself, potentially?
03:59:34 syv: I guess protecting two people from two opponents is more efficient, but I think I'd go with targeting the biggest thing.
04:00:49 ER: I guess so. Unless Knack stops you from targetting the same thing twice
04:01:59 Devastator: is there a way to get extra actions temporarily?
04:02:02 Devastator: so you can maybe do four?
04:02:11 Devastator: almost getting into orgy territory there.
04:02:34 ER: might be a haste spell or something?
04:03:00 syv: Yeah, considering that's seducing four targets into not attacking you and one friend...
04:03:18 Devastator: esp. if you only have one friend.
04:03:22 Devastator: who then shoots them.
04:03:22 ER: for a single turn. Having to roll each time
04:04:50 syv: It's pretty solid if you're a pair. Half damage over being combat but potentially more than 50% damage reduction.
04:05:43 ER: hmm, one archer, one seducer
04:06:00 syv: Also does allow targeted immunity in a group situation, with maybe some better stuff occasionally. Protect severely wounded ally, make the DPS standing next to the tank unable to attack tank, maybe giving the tank an AoO if the target leaves (and AoOs are a thing)
04:06:59 ER: still, you're probably limited to two, not four. I think they recognise action economy too much to let you passively get two standard actions per turn
04:07:15 ER: won't protect you against bosses, I think
04:07:37 Devastator: Nan couldn't do that.
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04:13:24 MidJag: I do like Zelda. But I'm kinda curious how it would work as an RPG
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04:14:09 ER: go into dungeons, slay monsters, steal the loot, beat the big bad?
04:14:23 ER: sounds pretty normal to me~
04:14:27 MidJag: Yeah, but like Zeldas so based around action and puzzles.
04:14:52 MidJag: And puzzles are at least in my experince the bane of DnD groups.
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04:15:47 ER: though they more often take the form of weird riddles and traps than... sliding block puzzles
04:15:47 MidJag: I dunno for the group I play in we all suck at puzzles.
04:16:59 syv:
Dev, after the corridor, left right left does double mice boss then V
04:17:29 syv: I did the first segment wrong a bunch so rerunning.
04:17:34 Devastator: and single mouse? It'd start with right.
04:17:57 Devastator: forget the path through one of the stages in Grief Syndrome.
04:18:45 syv: First half is left right right
04:19:52 Devastator: first half I found out that if you go through the same colour door as your first choice you're done after one room.
04:19:56 ER: hmm, this technique seems pretty bad. expensive to buy it, at 9 points (you're only allowed to start with traits up to 6 points), costs 10 stamina, requires you to have both hands empty or using fist weapons, and negates all damage from an attack but not any other effects.
04:20:17 ER: oh, and only works if the enemy is in melee with you
04:20:35 ER: and doesn't work on spells, only normal attacks and techniques
04:21:11 syv: Right left after corridor goes back to double mice, so right right.
04:22:19 syv: Might be good for a tank. How many attacks does a character normally get? How expensive is ten stamina?
04:22:41 syv: How targeted is it? Retroactive, or "next attack"?
04:23:16 ER: you get 4 stamina per rank in [stamina-determining trait], and traits have a minimum of 1, max of 5 at chargen and max of 10 after
04:23:29 MidJag: If it's retroactive that actually seems like it could be useful
04:24:09 ER: it's a reaction when you're targeted.
04:24:49 MidJag: so not when you take damage?
04:24:55 syv: Yeah, that is totally ridiculous.
04:25:01 syv: It should cost ONE stamina.
04:27:42 ER: know what else costs 10 stamina? "make three attacks rather than one"
04:28:34 ER: and that one costs only 6, too!
04:29:10 MidJag: what game is this for
ER?
04:29:57 MidJag: ah. Sorry, I'm really tired.
04:30:08 Devastator: does flirt count as an attack?
04:31:06 ER: it's specifically three strike basic attacks, so no ranged, no poking with a spear, no doing techniques
04:32:15 syv: I wonder if this game has been seriously playtested.
04:33:06 ER: no idea how much they might have playtested before the initual release though
04:34:08 MidJag: huh. The see also for wikipedia on survival kit links to Urugayan flight 571.
04:36:57 syv: Oookay I have not avoided double mice with >< OR >>
04:37:09 MidJag: They crashed in the mountains. Essentially ended up becoming the donner party. Just seems strange because they didnn't have any surivial gear there.
04:37:17 ER: hah. there's a technique to throw a grappled creature smaller than you at an enemy
04:37:33 Devastator: it is possible. There's a single mouse bossroom.
04:38:08 syv: Is it identical to the normal double mouse bossroom, but only one mouse spawns?
04:38:25 syv: ...I do believe that is a bug.
04:40:28 syv: Yep. >>_< also gets me the double boss mouse.
04:40:43 Devastator: so go left right left then?
04:41:10 syv: I'll try >>_>< again, but yeah, I think >>_<>< is ideal.
04:44:03 syv: Man, Sayaka is just too perfect for this level.
04:52:15 Devastator: I meant >> after the hallway.
04:53:32 syv: Yeah, that got me double mouse last time.
04:55:09 MidJag: how does greif seed work?
04:55:56 syv: Well you take the grief seed
04:56:05 syv: And you jam it all up against your soul gem
04:56:12 syv: Then you feed it to the bunnycat
04:56:23 syv: And he goes and throws it into a sun so that it'll burn longer.
04:57:08 ER: pretty sure he just noms them
04:57:43 MidJag: No I mean like how does the game work>?
04:57:43 MidJag: I rember how entropy reversal works come on. What kind of barbarian do you think I am? :P
04:58:04 Devastator: couldn't try it myself, died 4 times before the first turnaround on the girder section of stage 1.
04:58:17 Devastator: and then finished with 20k left because who the fuck knows.
04:58:17 ER: the game's called grief syndrome. have we not forced you to play it yet?
04:58:33 Devastator: It's Streets of Rage with magical girls.
05:00:11 MidJag: I rember it's 2D and that's about it.
05:00:11 MidJag: Also there's glasses black and normal black and that's it.
05:05:45 MidJag: that sounds more like a emphuamisim than it actually is
05:08:13 syv: >>_>>>< does not avoid double mouse.
05:08:55 Devastator: yeah, >>_>> gets double mouse.
05:09:02 Devastator: does >>_>< miss it?
05:10:59 syv: IIRC it does but I guess I can run it yet again.
05:11:17 syv: After farming Octavia a couple times for soul.
05:12:53 Devastator: and you can do that?
05:13:57 syv: You can farm any witch for soul. They all heal for 10k on victory.
05:14:08 syv: Octavia is just by FAR the easiest to kill without dying.
05:14:13 syv: Since she has no labyrinth.
05:15:46 Devastator: hmm, that's an idea if I could get that down.
05:15:58 Devastator: sac someone, re-fight octavia until back at 99k, plus levels.
05:16:07 Devastator: dunno if I can do that successfully.
05:16:57 syv: It's been a long time since I wasted an hour on the same bossfight (in this game), but I think Sac reduces soul *max*, including from heals.
05:17:17 syv: Takes less than two minutes to kill her now, so might as well...
05:19:40 Devastator: I don't even need to sac.
05:20:01 Devastator: finish level 1, kill blue, max on octavia, do stage 2, re-max, etc.
05:20:13 ER: I was in "finish the thing I'm doing first" mode, but then I realized that the thing I'm doing is reading a giant fucking tome and I can maybe save it for later
05:20:23 ER: want to watch something,
syv? :)
05:20:32 Devastator: do stage 2 at like level 30. ;-p
05:20:33 ER: or are you distracted by game
05:28:06 Piecewise_: going to bed in just a second. Just wanted to post the results of my work today. I am a bad art, so it takes a long time to make anything even vaguely ok.
05:28:22 Piecewise_: any questions or anything before I go?
05:28:40 MidJag: That looks quite good honestlly
05:37:44 syv: >>_><><><><_ loops and avoids any mouse bossfight through the mercy mechanic--you always get punted to the second corridor eventually.
05:41:27 ER: hey, there's a necrodancer reference in this!
05:41:55 ER: not very surprising, given there's a zelda necrodancer crossover game, but it's nice
05:42:18 MidJag: That sounds intresting.
05:42:36 ER: it is! It is also naturally on a console I do not own.
05:43:11 Devastator: oh, they punt you there eventually? That's neat.
05:43:20 Devastator: well, if I can clear those rooms perfectly, that's the solution.
05:44:14 syv: _><< does do double mouse boss.
06:21:03 syv: Okay, so there's no soul cap from grief seeds.
06:21:27 syv: Past 100k it just shows 99,999 until you lose enough to drop below that.
06:22:23 Devastator: if I can learn to kill Octavia without dying reliably, maybe it's beatable then.
06:22:38 syv: I went into stage 4 with ~112k, and at Lvl 25, and beat it for the first time. Pretty heavily abusing the fact that Sayaka at this point has like 300% normal HP and a really good semi-screen wipe attack.
06:23:49 syv: Octavia is a decently hard fight in Nightmare, but is *very* fair by my definition. You almost always can avoid damage if you know what she's doing, and there's no minions to screw it up.
06:30:21 ER: you know it's a good game when: there's a section on supply and demand
06:31:21 syv: Did last level with three deaths, two on the boss.
06:31:56 syv: Walpurgisnacht is just an absolute clusterfuck.
06:39:11 Devastator: well, there you go, completed.
06:43:36 syv: This dumb game makes me want to mod it every time I play it.
06:43:47 syv: But it's so not worth modding.
06:43:56 Devastator: It's dumb, but good.
06:44:10 Devastator: very, very few web games that control as well.
06:44:28 syv: It's got reaaally nice control.
06:44:56 ER: when you've not got seconds-per frame due to netplaying with
dev
06:45:19 Devastator: one day I will have better internet.
06:46:25 syv: I doubt that's just due to
Dev, anyway.
06:46:56 syv:
ER and I could test it duo, I guess, but I doubt he's still interested in the game.
06:47:06 ER: well, it's certainly not as slow with just us two
06:50:48 syv: If you want to try it next Saturday night/Sunday morning, we can.
06:50:59 syv: But I imagine there's better things to do.
06:52:18 Devastator: chefgame sat night?
06:53:43 MidJag: Which one do you need to play it with other people?
06:54:32 MidJag: But I'll see if I can snag the second.
06:54:35 Devastator: oh, the missing secret level is based off 2-1.
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06:54:50 Devastator: I think up to 4 is ok.
06:55:05 syv: ...I question if he'll be able to find the time. But eh.
07:01:14 ER: I'm reading this. I can't both read and update
07:01:35 syv: Then run a game of this instead.
07:01:55 ER: I can't. I haven't read it all yet.
07:02:10 syv: How long until you finish?
07:02:49 ER: literally forever. it is an infinite, cursed book
07:03:12 ER: my soul is trapped and will never be freed again from this eternity of zelda fanworks
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07:04:42 ER: "yeah, you can just get stuff for free by smashing pots inside of people's houses"
07:05:48 syv: Sigh. Well, tell me if you find any rules about luck dragons.
07:06:49 syv:
Devastator, did *you* understand that reference?
07:09:16 Devastator: does it predate 2011?
07:10:46 Devastator: sheesh, I saw those vids when they were new.
07:13:44 syv: Looks like the reference is about four decades old.
07:24:59 ER: Z has innate magebreaker magic night vision, a mana powered flashlight, and a normal lantern
07:25:13 ER: probably have illumination covered?
07:26:11 syv: Fire. You always want fire. Fire is awesome.
07:26:18 syv: ...Also it is literally your boss.
07:26:50 syv: That's really weird, everyone uses Telcal himself... to boil their soup and cook their meals in general.
07:28:36 ER: though he is the concept of fire, that specific volcano, and a specific incarnation all at once
07:29:05 syv: Z should introduce herself like that.
07:29:15 syv: "Hi, I'm Zavi. I work for fire."
07:30:19 syv: I'd say Zerthel Zentol was a better employer, but no, ZZ had a terrible health plan and possibly negative pay.
07:30:55 ER: I shortened it in the spoiler too long and everyone forgot her real name >:(
07:31:25 Devastator: hmm, magebreakers have magic night vision.
07:31:35 ER: Zavirius En-Drani Haver, Magebreaker.
07:31:36 Devastator: although not exactly a tactic for glowygirl.
07:31:44 Devastator: That mean anything?
07:32:48 syv: Well, Haver is Havel with a Japanese accent. So she's tough and heavily armored.
07:33:31 syv: En-Drani includes En, which is the sphere of negation/destruction/void. And Drani is just "drain" with the last two letters swapped.
07:34:02 syv: And Zavi is just her name, yeah.
07:34:35 Devastator: also a violin maker.
07:34:44 ER: did ekrov ever call her zavi?
07:34:54 ER: because that would probably annoy her
07:35:53 syv: Probably did, because I always call her Zavi. Though I may have upped him to "Zavirius" to show him being formal.
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11:59:53 ER: nature asking if we have enough money to "buy a ship" when we have 6 silver
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21:44:00 ER: apparently I needed radio to remind me that binoculars have glass inside them
22:55:28 Devastator: mmm, how'd radio take it?
22:59:15 Devastator: oh, thought you were sarcastic.
23:00:35 ER: never assume malice when stupidity is a valid explaination ;p
23:02:13 Devastator: want to ask
PW if I can do an item like that spell I wanted.
23:02:17 Devastator: or just one that does an illusion.
23:10:04 Devastator: no offense, but risking a mutation to do an illusion on self just seems too much.
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