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01:00:20 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Tactihell update status: Eventually Returning?
01:00:20 Topic set by syv [Wednesday 23 October 2019, 15:34:14]
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02:15:14 Devastator: that split took a bit of time.
03:38:25 Devastator: if you're around, I'd like to hit the sack early. Lemme know if you wanna chat.
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05:31:58 IronyOwl: was just curious if you got
pw's list
05:33:06 Devastator: posted a response here.
05:33:10 Devastator: after I woke up from my nap.
05:33:19 IronyOwl: I missed it, what'd you say?
05:33:23 Devastator: [00:07]
Devastator mmm
05:33:24 Devastator: [00:11]
Devastator None of those actually work.
05:33:26 Devastator: [00:11]
Devastator but many of those are pretty interesting.
05:33:27 Devastator: [00:11]
Devastator 1 isn't possible, but if you're specific about what you're looking for, you might be able to find some kinda substitute.
05:33:29 Devastator: [00:12]
Devastator 2 needs a more specific goal.
05:33:30 Devastator: [00:12]
Devastator 3 can work, but it's a multi-step process.
05:33:32 Devastator: [00:12]
Devastator 4 can also work.
05:33:34 Devastator: [00:12]
Devastator same for 5.
05:33:35 Devastator: [00:13]
Devastator 6 is same for 1.
05:33:37 Devastator: [00:13]
Devastator 7 is fun, but completely irrelevant. Mad scientists have an unlimited supply of volunteers, and you can fleshwarp them already.
05:33:38 Devastator: [00:13]
Devastator 'volunteers'
05:33:40 Devastator: [00:14]
Devastator 8 doesn't actually work as designed. There are no great old ones on this planet, plot reasons.
05:33:42 Devastator: [00:14]
Devastator 9 you can do similar things, but multi-step process.
05:33:43 Devastator: [00:14]
Devastator Also, don't try 9 until EVENTS.
05:33:45 Devastator: [00:14]
Devastator 10 is more profitable than 9.
05:33:46 Devastator: [00:15]
Devastator 11 is impossible. Souls have no physicality on this plane of existance. Combining it with multi-dimensional shenanigans is inefficient.
05:33:48 Devastator: [00:15]
Devastator well, depends on what angle.
05:33:50 Devastator: [00:15]
Devastator 12 is fun, but you need to be specific about your goals.
05:33:51 Devastator: [00:16]
Devastator not just "X" Cover as much as possible.
05:33:53 Devastator: [00:16]
Devastator 13 is the same.
05:33:54 Devastator: [00:17]
Devastator 14 is mostly irrelevant. You are perfectly capable of doing fleshwarping. Finding some obscure starting material is more for fun flavor purposes. However, it's not an invalid method of describing progress; you can make a better product by starting by doing that in step one.
05:33:56 Devastator: [00:18]
Devastator ..but that applies to most any similar process. Starting with something rare and expensive can improve the product, either equivalent to a turn of work or by spending money on base material.
05:33:58 Devastator: [00:18]
Devastator nobody's done this yet, but you can just buy or acquire a large tiger say, and warp from that for some advantage.
05:33:59 Devastator: [00:18]
Devastator Nature tried to do that with gigantic wasps, but those aren't things that exist, so went with 'make' for her turn.
05:34:01 Devastator: [00:19]
Devastator 15 is similar to 12 and 13.
05:34:03 Devastator: [00:20]
Devastator In general you are pefectly capable of acquiring or manufacturing godflesh, but I won't agree to an interpretation that involves the existance of a being that can save the world for you. That's your job.
05:34:04 Devastator: [00:21]
Devastator If you are clear enough about your goals there are many viable methods to creating a useful item like godflesh. Do consider however, if it's better or more effective than just using kaiju flesh, which is more common and readily available at much less effort.
05:36:38 IronyOwl: so I was right to worry about the availability of it
05:37:49 IronyOwl: am I correct in assuming that divine flesh would typically count as an exotic material and thus require a x3 cost workshop/lab to mess with, for orgs?
05:37:52 Devastator: I don't know what you mean by that.
05:38:11 Devastator: It probably should require one.
05:38:19 Devastator: but that's not how exotic labs and workshops work.
05:38:27 IronyOwl: I was concerned that divine flesh sounds great and all, but we already have a steady supply of kaiju flesh
05:38:46 IronyOwl: so anyway I was concerned trying to harvest godflesh would just be inefficient
05:39:14 IronyOwl: so how do exotic labs/workshops work?
05:39:22 Devastator: remember, if you shove like 11 pieces of kaiju flesh in a design, you need like 11 pieces for each one you produce.
05:46:01 Devastator: it's different than how a mad science machine works.
05:50:11 IronyOwl: oh yeah, how do kaiju bits affect the final product, and how does using multiple bits compare?
05:50:49 IronyOwl: can you at least give me an idea of how it scales?
05:51:00 Devastator: You guys have collectively used zero kaiju bits.
05:51:30 IronyOwl: well, a few of us have bits saved up, so that should change pretty soon...
05:52:05 IronyOwl: btw, why do organic critters require one larger lab/workshop space than nonorganics?
05:52:34 Devastator: Because organic critters need the space to move around.
05:52:52 Devastator: they do have a few advantages over something equivalent mechanical.
05:54:37 IronyOwl: if they weren't way more awesome than mechanical things I'd suspect they weren't worth the effort, then
05:54:55 IronyOwl: well, that and kaijuflesh is (presumably) organic, so they're probably easier to slap bits onto
05:56:57 Devastator: kaiju flesh is PLOT
05:57:16 Devastator: and no, they aren't way more awesome. There are advantages, but I don't know what's better.
05:59:09 IronyOwl: would you rather have boring old mechanical tanks or CRAB TANKS?
05:59:18 Devastator: MECHANICAL CRAB TANKS>
05:59:23 Devastator: didn't you ever see METAL SLUG?
06:08:28 IronyOwl: so mad scientists can ready buildings to then construct in org bases, right?
06:08:41 Devastator: but once it's out of that lab, it's gone.
06:09:08 IronyOwl: can orgs reverse engineer buildings?
06:10:03 IronyOwl: so could a mad scientist create a laboratory or workshop of some sort, and if so would it have any benefits over a normal one?
06:11:02 Devastator: No, you can't design any research boosters.
06:20:26 IronyOwl: ...does my kaiju annex apply to all kaiju labs I have, or am I gonna have to build a second annex to get the efficiency boost for a second lab?
06:22:37 IronyOwl: applies to just that one or I need just that one? :x
06:23:13 Devastator: Your kaiju annex applies to just the one lab.
06:24:11 IronyOwl: hm, could a mad scientist make me a fancy kaiju lab and/or dissection annex/
06:25:44 Devastator: Yeah, you can MS up additional fancy stuff to your kaiju labs.
06:25:48 Devastator: you can also research more.
06:27:24 IronyOwl: I probably should have figured out how valuable kaiju bits were before specializing in them :p
06:27:57 Devastator: Well, that's your decision.
06:28:02 IronyOwl: oh right, you said a high energy physics lab improves most designs, but not hangars... I forget what you said about labs/workshops?
06:28:44 IronyOwl: I don't regret it or intend to back out now, our ignorance just makes it hard to gauge how good an idea investing further in it is
06:29:13 Devastator: You can't improve hangars.
06:29:21 IronyOwl: but for reference, I'm currently considering Large size crabmen with kaiju acid grenade launchers, so... dumping lots of bits on them wouldn't be amiss
06:29:24 Devastator: there are ways to improve workshops. Not really labs, except kaiju labs.
06:29:37 Devastator: just remember, the more bits go into the design, the more bits you ened to make them.
06:30:02 IronyOwl: but if I'm pumping out a dozen bits a turn, putting a dozen bits into every design might be sustainable
06:30:03 Devastator: If you can just boost your lab performance indefinately, it'd be too hard for a new player to get in.
06:30:13 Devastator: do note you can't make the raw material.
06:30:18 Devastator: sometimes it'll be for sale, but not always.
06:30:32 IronyOwl: though it's seemed pretty abundant so far
06:30:51 IronyOwl: so what ways are there to improve workshops?
06:31:07 IronyOwl: ...hm, could I research a way to make the raw material?
06:31:20 IronyOwl: at the moment I doubt I'd want to, but I suppose that could become relevant at some point
06:31:29 Devastator: Ask for something you want to do, and I'll likely say yes.
06:31:46 Devastator: second, that's probably possible, but it'd be at least a two-stage research.
06:31:57 Devastator: you might need a new building to do that research.
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06:48:19 IronyOwl: sorry, missed anything you might have said after my last comment
07:06:44 IronyOwl: could a workshop be designed to produce units more cheaply?
07:09:48 Devastator: price is based on the stats of the item.
07:10:35 IronyOwl: what about higher stats for produced items, then?
07:11:18 Devastator: have to be specific.
07:11:36 Devastator: not going to be for everything, that's what exotic materials stuff is for.
07:11:57 IronyOwl: hm... foundry-workshop to boost the armor rating of produced items?
07:12:22 Devastator: Nah, specific items, not specific stats.
07:12:22 IronyOwl: crystal-tuner workshop to boost the power of laser-based weapons?
07:13:04 IronyOwl: so a tank workshop that's good at producing tanks, or would it have to be a particular model of tank?
07:13:54 IronyOwl: might not be a bad idea if we get something super specific we're going to want a lot of but never need to upgrade
07:14:03 IronyOwl: probably not coincidentally, I can't think of what such a thing would be
07:14:13 Devastator: I can think of a lot of uses for such a thing.
07:14:32 IronyOwl: well tell me about them then, I'm drawing a blank :p
07:14:54 Devastator: You asked me about a good example of them not too long ago.
07:15:07 Devastator: ie, you already had the idea it'd be good for.
07:15:19 IronyOwl: kaiju acid? giant crabmen?
07:15:30 IronyOwl: hrm, what was I asking about earlier...
07:17:48 IronyOwl: lots of stuff! but I don't remember which stuff...
07:18:08 IronyOwl: individual components, like generic armor to then be applied separately to tanks/etc?
07:19:38 Devastator: Nah, no use to having a factory that gives a boost to an individual component or consumable item.
07:20:24 IronyOwl: I can't tell if you're serious or not D:
07:21:08 Devastator: might ban that, actually.
07:21:14 Devastator: it'd be a redundant purpose.
07:22:12 Devastator: you could also just research a better X and make those.
07:22:56 IronyOwl: hm, so an improved workshop is really only doing its purpose if it's doing something you can't really research?
07:23:34 Devastator: All the stuff that does similar stuff mostly does different stuff.
07:23:38 Devastator: except the security buildings.
07:23:44 Devastator: those all do the same thing.
07:23:53 IronyOwl: would handling organic forms better be an improved workshop thing?
07:23:54 Devastator: the different names are there so you have to research something to get an extra one.
07:24:41 IronyOwl: oh right, another thing
07:25:15 IronyOwl: if components improve units without increasing their upkeep cost, does that make it better to produce individual components and apply them than to produce units with those kinds of augments already installed?
07:25:32 Devastator: You're making an assumption there.
07:25:46 IronyOwl: oh, components don't always not increase costs?
07:25:57 Devastator: No, many components do increase costs.
07:26:31 IronyOwl: well opposite question then: is it more efficient to build units out of whole cloth, piecemeal, or is it about the same?
07:26:54 Devastator: Depends on what you do with them.
07:27:23 Devastator: there are advantages to whole cloth stuff.
07:27:27 Devastator: there are advantages to components.
07:27:41 Devastator: if you go with the right ideas each one will do better.
07:27:44 Devastator: if you don't, it won't help.
07:28:12 IronyOwl: I'm guessing whole cloth is more efficient for a single product, but components let you share advances among several designs?
07:31:03 IronyOwl: don't suppose you'd answer a specific hypothetical on the subject?
07:31:31 IronyOwl: ...I just realized my hypothetical wouldn't quite work for reasons
07:31:44 Devastator: something specific, maybe.
07:31:47 IronyOwl: actually wait I have a different hypothetical
07:31:54 IronyOwl: suppose I make giant crabmen with grenade launcher arms
07:32:35 IronyOwl: if I designed them to produce their own kaiju acid grenades, would that make them more expensive than if I manufactured and supplied the grenades myself?
07:33:08 Devastator: If you design them with the grenade launcher arms they will always have a supply of grenade launchers.
07:33:21 Devastator: if you make them kaiju acid grenades, you'll need to supply the new ones with kaiju acid.
07:33:30 Devastator: but you don't need to ever provide reloads.
07:33:51 Devastator: if you make them generic grenade launchers, and then make kaiju acid grenades for them, you can add them later.
07:34:00 Devastator: that may or may not be more efficient.
07:34:23 Devastator: you could design the kaiju acid grenades in a second lab.
07:35:01 IronyOwl: ahhhh, and that might make them stronger, or would "design the grenades for them to use" be a separate step regardless?
07:35:28 Devastator: strength is entirely how strong you decide to make them.
07:36:41 IronyOwl: so how do reverse engineered mad scientist plans compare to from-scratch plans?
07:37:17 IronyOwl: like if I have
pw make me a giant crab soldier while I design my own, and then I reverse engineer his baby and produce a copy of each to compare... how would they typically stack up?
07:37:50 Devastator: Too many variables there for a meaningful answer.
07:38:21 IronyOwl: well, let me rephrase that then
07:38:49 IronyOwl: suppose
piecewise and my lead scientist both spent three turns producing/designing a giant crabman
07:39:20 Devastator:
PW is almost certainly to produce the superior giant crabman.
07:39:29 Devastator: but there will be compensations for your version.
07:41:46 IronyOwl: what about when I reverse engineer
pw's crabman to mass produce them, will they remain basically as they were or will they come down a bit in translation?
07:41:58 Devastator: Expect them to come down a bit.
07:42:05 Devastator: it's for the best, really.
07:42:15 Devastator: I mean, you saw the prion launcher.
07:42:21 Devastator: how many of those do you really want hanging around?
07:42:22 IronyOwl: haha, yes, yes indeed
07:43:03 IronyOwl: well, how much difference would there be between the org-researched and reverse-engineered version?
07:45:08 IronyOwl: is it worth doing, then?
07:45:21 Devastator: I mean, you saw the prion launcher.
07:45:40 IronyOwl: oh yes, I know full well getting the originals is totally wurth
07:46:16 IronyOwl: my question is whether there's any benefit to reverse engineering them, or if we should just research anything we want to mass produce ourselves
07:47:36 Devastator: That's entirely up to you.
07:48:12 IronyOwl: well... you said the difference between them would be small, could you be more specific? :x
07:49:21 Devastator: You don't even have the base equipment to provide really accurate intel on things you do have.
07:49:42 Devastator: much less things you don't have, and still less things that don't actually exist.
07:49:56 Devastator: No, because the item in question doesn't actually exist.
07:52:58 IronyOwl: well, would I need an org and reversed MS version of basically the same product before I could figure that out? or would
syv need that, I guess?
07:53:16 Devastator: It would help a lot if you had both.
07:53:26 Devastator: worse, you have to destroy the part to reverse-engineer it.
07:53:53 Devastator: but you will be able to get a pretty good idea of what you lost.
07:54:08 IronyOwl: that's gonna get real awkward with living things...
07:57:11 IronyOwl: well that's one flaw in my crabman plans...
07:57:43 IronyOwl: if I had a living thing that regenerated very well, could I dissect it piecemeal so it was never actually destroyed?
07:58:38 Devastator: I'd probably allow that, yeah.
07:58:46 IronyOwl: crab's back on the menu!
07:59:03 IronyOwl: assuming I can get that, anyway
07:59:16 IronyOwl: here's hoping kaiju guts make good regenerative components
07:59:48 IronyOwl: speaking of which, can we get a sense of what parts or bits can/can't do once we have them?
08:00:19 Devastator: ask the question in-thread.
08:16:18 IronyOwl: five questions posted
08:16:57 Devastator: I'll answer them sometime on saturday.
08:17:52 IronyOwl: speaking of which, I must slumber
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