00:06:16 ER: first roguelike I played was nethack
00:06:43 Devastator: rogue's a lot cruder.
00:07:24 ER: I think Noita is a lot closer than most roguish games by the metric of actually being interesting though.
00:07:39 ER: and not having FUCKING META PROGRESSION ;P
00:12:01 Piecewise: I guess this was inevitable
00:12:17 Piecewise: note though that it came out of nowhere, no laser sight
00:12:34 ER: slapped in the face by a rifle bullet
01:36:28 Devastator: Ugh, why did nature have to change orders from 'develop my toxin' to 'biomod creatures'
01:36:33 Devastator: I can't really do both.
01:36:38 Devastator: oh well, have to go with the first one.
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02:24:01 syv: Why the hatred for meta progression?
02:25:44 Devastator: it renders the game meaningless.
02:26:44 syv: It's a game, it's completely meaningless beyond how much you enjoy it.
02:26:58 Devastator: it means that once you're happy, you will never be happy again.
02:27:04 Devastator: as you progress past that point.
02:29:53 syv: No, it means that once *you're* happy, you'll never be happy again.
02:30:31 syv: I played through the entirety of Noita, by savescumming, because I wanted to see more content. And... strangely enough, I both enjoyed that run, and *still* enjoy the rest of the game.
02:31:58 syv: Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean other people can't enjoy something. And there's legitimate reasons to enjoy meta progression; for one thing, this game has a *ton* of content, but a lot of it is locked to anyone who doesn't play skillfully for a half hour or so through earlier content.
02:32:58 syv: It's not a competitive game, so even a halfassed "You start with more HP, if you choose to unlock it." wouldn't hurt the game for people who choose not to take it.
02:33:11 syv: And that's by far the laziest way they could implement meta progression.
02:34:31 Devastator: That's a detailed and at-length wholly subjective statement. ;-p
02:35:06 syv: "Some people enjoy different things" is subjective?
02:36:00 syv: I suppose "Having the option to have an easier time won't make the game worse for people who like difficulty" *is* subjective, strictly speaking.
02:36:04 Devastator: You'd be suprised how good marketing is.
02:36:37 syv: Okay, that's nonsense. You're just complaining about something you dislike, now.
02:37:09 syv: Marketing is effective, but that doesn't mean everyone likes the same things, with the only differences being made-up or forced.
02:39:00 Devastator: eh, it's fair that there is truth to that statement.
02:39:06 Devastator: the rest is subjective, though.
02:41:56 syv: Literally no. Message 1 & 2 are insults, 3&4 are fact, 5 is half fact ("people enjoy things you dislike"), half subjective conclusion drawn from fact, 6 is subjective, though "Noita isn't competitive" is pretty hard to argue, and 7 is arguable due to a superlative but that doesn't detract from its truth.
02:43:03 Devastator: what do you mean it's not competitive.
02:43:06 Devastator: there's speedrunning.
02:43:10 Devastator: and it's a game where you shoot things.
02:43:43 Devastator: those are both forms of competition!
02:45:04 syv: You can use it to compete, but it's a terrible choice for competition. It's ridiculously luck based, even given phenomenal skill, which speedrunners and competitive people... tend to dislike? "Play the game 400 times, eventually you'll by chance find an early wand with multiple black holes, and have a chance at coming close to the WR".
02:46:03 syv: I'm pretty sure the fastest way to get through any level is with teleportitis, and stupid luck, which is an insanely random thing.
02:47:27 syv: Finally, I literally just said that the "it's not competitive" is subjective, it's just that you've gotta be an idiot or a futilely argumentative individual to argue it.
02:49:06 Devastator: There are competitive speedruns of Yu-Gi-Oh Reshef of Destruction, which is insanely random.
02:49:26 Devastator: basically you spend from like five minutes to four hours fishing for single cards multiple times.
02:50:07 syv: Uhhuh. And would giving Noita meta-progression that can be fully unlocked after ten hours of play make it any worse, in a competitive sense?
02:51:32 Devastator: it would require resetting each run.
02:52:03 Devastator: So you can start on even ground.
02:52:34 syv: Starting with meta progression fully unlocked wouldn't be starting on even ground?
02:52:46 Devastator: even ground is always 'from zero'
02:52:54 Devastator: so that version changes are less disruptive.
02:53:24 Devastator: You're still going to have people migrate to versions with better perks, but it'll be less disruptive.
02:55:22 syv: Noita would still be better with meta progression.
02:56:17 syv: (Also, it actually *does* have meta progression, which very barely affects the game, but it still would require full resets because it can affect the game.)
02:57:34 Devastator: the end of the turn is in sight.
02:57:43 Devastator: Fuck meta progression, it's shit.
02:57:57 Devastator: I'd rather win due to skill than have it be inevitable.
02:58:11 syv: It being shit is subjective.
02:58:25 syv: Why? Is your time that valueless?
02:59:17 Devastator: I play games to play games.
02:59:23 Devastator: which involves spending time playing games.
02:59:30 Devastator: I get the fun from playing them.
02:59:38 Devastator: so yeah, the time is the fun part.
02:59:53 syv: But you didn't say you don't want to win, you said you'd *rather* win by skill than inevitability.
03:00:03 syv: ...But winning by skill is a time investment.
03:00:14 syv: It's also an inevitability, just one that takes longer.
03:00:15 Devastator: I haven't went below level 3,
syv.
03:00:22 Devastator: Winning is not an inevitability.
03:00:31 syv: It is if you spend long enough.
03:00:40 syv: Which is also true of winning a game with meta progression.
03:00:52 syv: If Noita had meta progression, I still wouldn't have won in one hour.
03:00:54 Devastator: Not really. With meta progression it becomes increasingly difficult to not win.
03:01:05 Devastator: so eventually you will win.
03:01:08 Devastator: I'd rather just play.
03:01:13 syv: ...But if spend the next fifty years playing Noita, I'm going to win at some point.
03:01:16 Devastator: If I feel like I want to win it, I'd try for that.
03:02:57 syv: Now, you might be different from me in this respect, but I tend to like doing new things. I don't really play DaS vanilla with no challenge modifiers very often, but I do love to play a new challenge, or with a new mod.
03:03:18 syv: Meta progression in Noita could remove some of the game's tedium, and allow more time spent playing different content.
03:03:35 Devastator: If I wanted to play something new, I'd play a different game.
03:04:04 Devastator: If I want to play Noita, I play Noita.
03:04:11 syv: Winning is something beside the point; good meta progression would expand the game, and probably only make it easier as a side effect.
03:04:16 syv: What do you like about Noita, then?
03:04:38 syv: Why do you want to play it over tic-tac-toe?
03:05:11 Devastator: meta progression would feel like it would take away from the action.
03:06:12 Devastator: Because things would die easier or be less capable of killing me.
03:06:35 Devastator: because that's what meta progression is.
03:06:40 Devastator: more stuff given to the player for time.
03:06:56 syv: Does "stuff" always make it easier?
03:07:11 Devastator: Almost always, yeah.
03:07:27 Devastator: and in cases where it doesn't, why not just have it all unlocked to begin with?
03:07:55 syv: I just checked DoomRL, I can't run a dual-angel game.
03:08:11 syv: Presumably it's an unlockable, and yet to my recollection, angel challenges make the game more difficult.
03:08:21 Devastator: Almost always, yeah.
03:08:25 syv: So it's meta-progression which doesn't make the game easier.
03:08:34 Devastator: and meta progression is one of the most annoying things in DoomRL.
03:09:34 syv: As to why not to have it unlocked from the start--because for a new player, increased challenges can make the game less fun, when they still don't know the basics.
03:10:27 syv: I think one of the best ways Noita could add meta progression is a random wand at the start of the levsl--it would make the first level less samey, because currently the first few minutes almost always play identically, while later levels play *drastically* differently based on your perks and wands.
03:10:44 Devastator: More reason to not want it then.
03:11:10 syv: But always having a random wand at the start would make it harder to understand for players.
03:11:24 syv: The starting two wands are a wonderful tutorial.
03:12:07 syv: So; meta progression. Die twenty times, you get a random starting wand. Reach level one twenty times, you get a random starting perk.
03:13:01 syv: Now the first level plays *very* differently, and people spend less time playing the first level that they've played--likely as many as a hundred times, or close to that--meaning they spend more time playing other content.
03:13:05 Devastator: Yeah, it's like "You like the gamplay? Tough.
03:13:16 Devastator: You're getting the intended gameplay, not what you like!
03:13:34 Devastator: You get a free perk!
03:14:28 syv: *I* would like Noita more with a checkpoint system. I think this legitimately *would* detract from the game for many people. So I... played with a checkpoint system by savescumming. Now I got to play the way I liked, and other people didn't play a way they'd like less.
03:14:44 syv: Sure, it'd be best if the free stuff had the option to turn it off, I can get behind that.
03:14:49 Devastator: but meta progression is not by choice.
03:15:00 Devastator: you WILL play the game as it was intended.
03:15:04 syv: DoomRL has never forced me to play an angel game.
03:15:20 syv: I tried it, but it detracts from the game for me, so I don't play them.
03:15:40 Devastator: but you're suggesting things that can't be ignored.
03:15:58 syv: Go back to using your qualifiers,
Dev. "Most meta progression is not by choice".
03:16:03 syv: Unless it can be turned off.
03:16:12 syv: Menu option: Free stuff? Off.
03:16:19 Devastator: Not many menu options like that.
03:16:28 Devastator: I can think of unlockable challenges.
03:16:36 syv: Just becuase it's unusual doesn't mean it's inferior.
03:16:37 Devastator: but not many menu items for turning off progression.
03:17:08 syv: I'm sure it's been done, and if not, well, maybe Noita should be even more groundbreaking.
03:17:48 syv: I'd say it'd be better with unavoidable meta progression than *none at all*, but that's an appeal to statistics. I firmly believe there's more people who would like it than people who wouldn't.
03:17:49 Devastator: I'm sure it's been done, too.
03:18:32 Devastator: but I can think of examples of unlockable challenges, and they're far rarer than meta upgrades.
03:18:42 Devastator: I can't think of a single 'turn off the progression' option.
03:19:23 syv: That's pretty close to an appeal to incredulity, we both know it's both possible and has likely happened.
03:19:33 Devastator: That's pretty rare.
03:20:27 syv: And if your argument is "It's unlikely to be an option, if meta-progression were in Noita", it's a useless point. I'm saying X would be good, you're saying "X probably wouldn't happen.
03:20:46 syv: We both know thw argument has no bearing on what the Devs *actually* do.
03:21:19 syv: Heh, accidentally capitalized Devs.
03:21:25 Devastator: read Nature's orders in Kaiju-Com 2.
03:21:38 Devastator: Welp, looks like all downside. ;-p
03:22:45 syv: Naturegirl's kinda an idiot, but I don't see what about this action in particular is notable?
03:23:03 Devastator: it's processable, but it doesn't do anything.
03:23:07 Devastator: I suppose I'll just do that.
03:24:53 syv: ...Can I look at her spoiler?
03:25:36 Devastator: lemme check my notes.
04:03:02 syv: Thunderstone is BAD idea to carry
04:03:24 syv: I was swapping to my water flask to refill it, rolled through thunderstone, bam, dead.
04:03:46 syv: Even stupider because I *specifically* rebound a key to the water flask thought, thinking of stuff like this.
04:04:54 syv: Had gotten a shield plus a pretty decent basic wand, and went back up to the surface to collect health upgrades--which I got four of.
04:05:26 syv: Then apparently jumping in water with a thunderstone deals *ninety* damage.
04:05:45 syv: So yeah, just... ugh, screw that rock.
04:06:07 syv: I've never even been able to use it effectively, even when I had it plus infinite water and acid generation.
04:06:33 Devastator: That sounds boring.
04:20:45 syv: ...Oh, it just occured to me. The Crypt of the Necrodancer speedrunning community plays with full unlocks.
04:24:30 Devastator: isn't that because first-play crypt is really easy and boring?
04:26:20 syv: And in fact, if it is, that works to my point anyway.
04:30:42 Devastator: people will speedrun even really bad speedrunning games?
04:32:22 syv: People will speedrun the version they prefer to speedrun.
04:32:52 syv: Not simply the basic version from a fresh start.
04:33:11 Piecewise: Saw the new joker movie
04:33:15 syv: 'Course, that's actually a subjective statement, as you've argued before.
04:33:19 Piecewise: didn't even get shot in the incel uprising!
04:33:37 syv: There's a new joker movie?
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04:33:39 Piecewise: Yeah, I'd say really good
04:33:58 Piecewise: though closer to taxi driver than joker when it comes down to it
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04:34:53 Devastator: I'm a little sad there's a joker backstory.
04:35:06 Devastator: It'll be good, but I love the concept that nobody fucking knows shit about the joker.
04:35:30 syv: Has that ever been a concept?
04:35:51 Piecewise: actually its canon that the joker backstories could be a lie
04:36:16 Piecewise: he specifically says it comes out differently each time he tells it in...the killing joke? I think
04:36:35 Piecewise: but nah, this movie is basically not a comic book movie
04:36:50 Piecewise: batman doesn't show up at all
04:37:04 Piecewise: joker only gets into that "character" right near the end
04:37:17 Piecewise: its basically a character drama
04:37:25 Devastator: There's been so many backstories that the canon has been "Nobody really fucking knows"
04:37:57 Devastator: No batman should be good.
04:41:40 Devastator: thanks for watching it.
04:49:30 syv: First temple has a 150 cost wand with six black hole elements.
04:50:51 Devastator: don't those take 180?
04:51:31 syv: It's 50% off, so 300 normal cost, but that's still the third most expensive.
04:52:43 syv: Cost =/= mana, and yes, 180 mana per cast of Black Hole. And yeah, the wand can't cast them, it's overall a shit wand.
04:53:06 syv: I'm just commenting on getting a *really* heavy haul of black hole so early.
04:53:25 syv: This is asking for a sequence break.
04:54:01 syv: Pity that the first level spawned precisely zero health upgrades, because luck.
04:55:12 Devastator: one day I will just dive.
04:57:19 Devastator: never been below stage 3.
04:59:15 Devastator: the issue is going everywhere.
05:01:30 Devastator: I just keep poking around until dead.
05:01:32 Devastator: instead of going down.
05:01:59 syv: Even once you're low on health?
05:02:15 syv: I poke around until I've either cleared everything, or gotten below ~20 HP.
05:02:23 Devastator: I don't really begin to play until I'm at like 4 health.
05:10:30 Devastator: for fucks sake, all these wands have 10 mana regen.
05:11:35 Piecewise: Those kinds of wands tend to have big mana reserves
05:11:53 Piecewise: good for spraying lots of powerful spells as a sort of last resort
05:12:07 Devastator: yeah, but it's also got 2.5 second recharge and six 'arrow on trigger'
05:12:27 Devastator: This other one has 910 mana, "Always Casts Explosions around spell" but 10 mana regen.
05:12:57 syv: That's... a bit lethal if you don't have explosion immunity, but the always-casts wands are great.
05:13:06 syv: The additional effect is 100% free.
05:13:27 syv: You can put a digging element on it, and the effect will apply to the digging element.
05:13:53 syv: With enough, and a low enough natural cast speed, you can have a wand of "send fireballs EVERYWHERE"
05:14:10 syv: ...I think. Never applied that particular element to a digging element.
05:14:26 Devastator: looks like best explosions come from giving it one high-speed spitter bolt.
05:14:32 Devastator: very random, still.
05:15:17 syv: Spitter bolt is actually pretty decent in a CQB role, from what I've seen. That might've been on a very fast casting wand though, I forget.
05:17:25 Devastator: "Casts two spells, always casts triurificated spell', but only 250 mana and 10 recharge.
05:17:59 syv: Trifurcated is free anyway.
05:18:20 syv: That's the perfect accuracy weird formation one, not the high spread one.
05:21:24 Devastator: ok, slapping spare chainsaws to lower the reload rates to near zero is making the wands look impressive now.
05:23:03 Devastator: I had to buy the chainsaw wand.
05:23:32 syv: Also, chainsaw-enhanced wands remain phenomenal melee weapons.
05:23:55 syv: Even the starting bomb wand with a chainsaw element is a stupid effective melee weapon.
05:31:15 Devastator: just got ambushed by surprise.
05:31:29 Devastator: too bad, fire trail on everything + infinite projectiles was fun.
05:31:44 Devastator: and so was the explosion wand, albeit fuck-credibly dangerous.
05:33:48 Devastator: was what really killed me, due to doing like 75 damage after firing it like 10 times.
05:33:54 Devastator: albeit so did everything else die.
05:38:21 Devastator: needed a faster projectile. Maybe two sparkbolts on trigger.
06:15:11 syv: Vampirism does not seem to allow health regeneration by drinking fish.
06:15:23 syv: Which makes some sense, I suppose, because fish do not bleed.
06:20:29 syv: I think I need a chainsaw to get it, though.
06:20:38 syv: Either that, or I need to drink the lake first.
06:21:23 Devastator: the west lake or the east lake?
06:22:06 syv: East lake, the small one with fish in it.
06:46:40 syv: Worm blood also does not count.
06:46:55 syv: Hey,
Piecewise, how do you take those recordings of Noita?
09:13:44 parisbre56[Away] is now known as parisbre56
09:14:04 parisbre56:
Piecewise wrote about it a while back
09:14:16 parisbre56: you need to edit some config files, I think
09:14:28 parisbre56: because the option is not currently exposed in game
09:14:44 parisbre56: but you can enable replay recording
09:14:50 parisbre56: so that it records your saw
09:15:20 parisbre56: and then you can select part of your replay to export as a gif
09:17:15 parisbre56 is now known as parisbre56[Away]
09:29:49 syv: Yeah, that only lets you record deaths.
09:30:27 syv: Unless Dubs has been killing himself to catch gifs, then trimming the deaths off, there's something else.
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12:06:13 Piecewise: The option is in the menu
12:06:23 Piecewise: depending on the game version
12:06:32 Piecewise: more recent versions have it at least
12:07:00 Piecewise: lets you capture gifs with f11
12:08:23 Piecewise: unrelated DRM free buy link
12:52:54 Piecewise: perfect anime for
sy
12:53:07 Piecewise: an anime in which the main character is a gun
13:06:42 Piecewise: another season of madoka coming in 2020
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18:28:54 er: Oh good, exactly what we needed.
18:35:48 er: We should watch it for the amusement of watching something we like get butchered.
18:42:44 er: I assume we're all into that. We liked PM3 after all.
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20:16:29 syv: Unless there's been some new announcement which I can't find and which Dubs did, it's only very barely another season of Madoka Magica.
20:17:23 syv: I assume he means Magia Record, which is coming out 2020, and is an anime adaption of the story in the Magia Record waifu gacha mobile game.
20:18:13 syv: It's not written by Urobutcher, and from what little I've looked into the plot, sounds like it's going to completely miss what made PM3 good.
20:18:36 syv: I'm still gonna watch it, of course, but I highly doubt it'll be at all decent.
20:19:36 syv: Also, I really hope I'm wrong, and
Piecewise found a new announcement for an actual legit second season.
20:20:04 syv has quit [Quit: You hear a distant scream of "FUCK AT&T!"]
20:59:34 Devastator: is that really madoka or a spinoff like
syv found?
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22:07:37 er: Yeah, figured it might be that thing.
22:07:53 er:
syv or someone mentioned it before.
23:08:33 er: I should buy a physical book or two of Unsounded, so that I can tell people that I like it enough to buy the physical book of it.
23:17:07 Piecewise: You should buy noita you ham
23:31:34 Devastator: I will, eventually.
23:41:30 er: Nah, next game I buy is gonna be Disco Elysium.
23:41:53 er: Noita is fine at it's current version number.
23:44:40 Devastator: Mad scientists don't need to worry about dying if they go on the attack.
23:44:54 Devastator: Losing the project is fairly likely, but mad scientists always somehow get away.
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