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00:52:39 Devastator: so.. the best of B, then.
01:00:43 Devastator: anything going on today?
01:00:59 Devastator: ..I can't see how Rydia won a tourney.
01:01:12 MJ: Nope, mostly just did chores and studied. Pretty slow weekend really.
01:02:02 Devastator: played some secret of mana.
01:02:22 MJ: That's like the real time JRPG right?
01:02:48 Devastator: It's really made for two players.
01:04:01 MJ: Figured, otherwise I would offer to play sometime
01:04:49 Devastator: It's like 60 hours, too.
01:05:09 MJ: That's pretty long for 8 bit
01:06:49 MJ: oh? This different from Square enix?
01:07:03 Devastator: Yeah. At that point they were seperate companies.
01:08:54 Devastator: Did anaconda fail to make babies again?
01:08:57 MJ: huh, apperentlly there was a remake
01:13:52 MJ: Well it seems intresting at from a gameplay perspective.
01:14:08 Devastator: The thing is, secret of mana isn't that great.
01:15:26 Devastator: It's badly written, what you need to do next is opaque, it's quite linear..
01:15:46 Devastator: The unique part is that it's two players.
01:16:02 MJ: That does sound pretty impressive for 16 bit
01:16:24 MJ: And it's real time rather than turn based
01:16:52 Devastator: No offense, but there are plenty of real time games on the SNES.
01:17:29 MJ: You would know far better than me. I have literally never played an SNES game.
01:17:47 MJ: ...I don't belive I've ever seen a real one either actually
01:17:56 Devastator: I can understand the latter, but damn.
01:18:12 Devastator: Okay, I need to make up a list, then. And then cut it to one title.
01:18:57 MJ: Hmmm, is Final fantasy the orginal one SNES or NES?
01:19:28 Devastator: IV, V, and VI were SNES.
01:19:56 MJ: Ah, then yeah, only SNES game I've played is contra and that one was a weird knockoff version.
01:20:30 Devastator: Could you stream playing one?
01:20:38 Devastator: I wouldn't mind seeing blind reactions to Terranigma..
01:21:20 MJ: Sure, couldn't do it this weekend, but I would probably have time soonish
01:21:51 Devastator: Yeah. That's.. a hell of a game.
01:22:17 Devastator: Crono Trigger is good. Prooobably better, but that's slightly more conventional, and much better known, so you might not get taken by suprise.
01:24:19 Devastator: Terranigma is also much shorter.
01:24:21 MJ: I've heard of crono trigger.
01:24:27 Devastator: Yeah, wouldn't be suprised.
01:24:32 MJ: But have never heard of terranigma
01:25:16 Devastator: It's much more obscure.
01:25:17 MJ: Hmm, I've played Dragon Quest IV But apperentlly that's NES
01:25:53 Devastator: DDRJake plays it once a year, and considers it a demonstration of why games are an art form.
01:27:38 Piecewise__: by the way
dev and other
01:27:41 Piecewise__: you might liek this
01:27:59 Piecewise__: digital versions of old gaming magazines
01:29:14 Devastator: sounds interesting..
01:29:18 Devastator: ..but I gotta be going.
01:41:32 Piecewise__: I've found some real life ones in my house and its fun to look back at them
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02:31:46 Piecewise__: you're one of those weirdos who likes ds2, right?
02:32:06 ER: I still haven't played much of it
02:32:19 Piecewise__: I'm redownloading it
02:32:33 Piecewise__: People keep saying its good, and I keep finding it to be bad
02:32:54 ER: mostly just wish that DS1 was ambidexterous and had the other good DS2 mechanical goodies
02:32:58 Piecewise__: I keep thinking I'm missing something
02:33:18 ER: which DS3 mostly passed up for being between Bloodborne and a faster DS1
02:33:49 ER: The levels are bad and the enemies are worse... but other than that it's the best DS game~
02:34:23 Piecewise__: I know a lot of people complain about ds3, including inferno
02:34:46 Piecewise__: and it does have a lot of issues, particularly in multiplayer which is all guys like that care about half the time
02:35:32 Piecewise__: But until goddamn ps4 emulators come out we ain't getting the best souls game on pc
02:35:40 ER: DS3 just stopped being interesting to me around boreal
02:36:03 ER: DS1 remains interesting despite its jank
02:36:05 Piecewise__: DS3's story reeks of "We ran out of time"
02:36:27 Piecewise__: the first half of ds1 is good
02:37:02 ER: I'd like to see what Sekiro is like, stripping out most of the demon souls formula but keeping a little.
02:39:11 Piecewise__: some stealth and then all out quick fights when that fails
02:40:10 ER: knowing my reflexes, I'll probably die seconds after unintentionally entering combat.
02:40:35 ER: that's what tends to happen when I'm spotted in Dishonored
02:40:52 Piecewise__: You really should try to play BB sometime
02:41:40 ER: Sekiro does seem like there's times you're intentionally starting combat, though.
02:43:06 ER: archers and mages seem to get instakilled when you hit them so you can just rush those down, and minibosses have multiple health bars so you can start the fight with an advanatage by doing a sneak attack, then be ready for the rest of the fight.
02:43:41 Piecewise__: yeah, and they handle stamina and stuff differently
02:44:08 ER: But if I get spotted early in an area full of enemies, it's either time for button mashing or grappling hook to run the fuck away
02:44:13 Piecewise__: have to break miniboss's poise to actually knock their final healthbar levels down
02:44:54 Piecewise__: Yeah they seem to have "Zones" so some will be alerted but others outside won't
02:45:06 ER: just draining their health isn't enough to remove a health bar, but the lower they are on health the easier it is to stagger
02:45:07 Piecewise__: which is more reasonable than every guard in the entire level knowing where you are
02:45:51 ER: I don't think there are any good stealth games where being spotted means everyone knows where you are at once. :P
02:46:23 Piecewise__: as long as we agree on that
02:46:40 ER: Xcom 2 is a good game, and it's a "stealth" game
02:46:51 ER: but it is not a "good stealth game"
02:47:47 ER: the stealth system is very simplistic and only designed to making getting into your first fight more interesting
02:48:44 Piecewise__: Its not even good at that though
02:48:52 ER: there's an actual hidden mechanic where enemy pods walk exactly where they need to to block you off from the objective just to make sure you can't win without breaking concealment, because it's not a stealth game
02:49:22 Piecewise__: Well that hidden mechanic sounds like dog shit me thinks
02:50:04 Piecewise__: also, I've played Xcom 2. They tell you to go in, go overwatch, and then trigger so you get shots in
02:50:11 ER: long war 2 removes that mechanic because it makes no sense. Which sounds great, right? But it turns Xcom2 into a stealth game, and xcom2 is not a fun stealth game
02:50:56 Piecewise__: I've consistantly done better triggering first and then acting because nuxcom enemies just get free turns to walk around and get into cover when you find them.
02:51:39 ER: yeah, xcom2 is unfortunately flawed, and LW2 is flawed in different ways, and nobody is working on LW2 anymore and nobody is making any similar large scale rebalance mods
02:52:40 Piecewise__: Its unfortunate because xcom original is neat but is a huge slog with all the micromanaging
02:52:54 Piecewise__: streamlining it just enough and releasing it unchanged otherwise would be fine
02:53:18 Piecewise__: but nucom is really really REALLY streamlined and simplified and makes some odd choices on how to handle things
02:54:18 ER: Beagle always did a thing when he first got the game where you put everyone on overwatch and one soldier out in the open, let the enemy pod patrol into you, then you get full overwatch shots as they scatter into cover and then because that was the enemy turn, you get to act again. It was patched out before release because Firaxis wants you to do the overwatch ambush thing.
02:55:11 ER: Openxcom does have lots of mods to keep it interesting.
02:57:27 Piecewise__: The overwatch ambush thing which is less effective
02:59:05 ER: dogs with plasma in their mouths and when they bark plasma comes out
03:07:54 ER: I'm so glad that my character isn't able to do anything useful
03:08:14 ER: because it means I don't have to worry about posting too late to do anything useful
03:09:16 ER: when there's enough players to break the forum's character count limit and they're all trying to go poke the thing and I post after all of them, there's really nothing I could do that would change the overall situation.
03:17:58 ER: I uh, forgot to count the enemy's accuracy stat -_-
03:27:45 ER: great roll for the lethal damage, less good roll for the pain.
04:17:52 Devastator: Heh, glad to hear someone thinks I'm not insane for liking x-com.
04:18:35 Devastator: And yeah, looks like lots of carnage in Mook.
04:18:48 Devastator: oh well, as the casulties rack up the number of alien pokers will drop.
04:47:32 MJ: Cool, I cooked chicken by myself for the first time today. I'm fairly confident I've managed to both not poison myself or burn down my apartment. Though I suppose the nights still young
04:47:56 Devastator: Lemme know if you ride the porcelain throne.
04:48:15 ER: bah, what does not kill you makes you stronger
04:49:34 MJ: I'll let you know if it kills me
ER.
04:50:10 Devastator: Now, will
ER manage on his fourth consecutive attempt to make babies in divine fuckery? ;-p
04:50:55 ER: to be fair last turn was all preperation
04:51:31 MJ: Also Nah,
ER you just set up some deadmans switchs. Simple.
04:51:39 ER: and I'm a little pissed that I suddenly stopped at an arbatrary point, seeing as I had a whole decade to do things in
05:03:17 MJ: Your videos tend to send my youtube recs into chaos
dev
05:06:04 Devastator: It might be linking something with an intermediate view count.
05:06:24 Devastator: ie, not 2000, but not 2 million.
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05:20:33 Devastator: time to message
syv..
05:22:49 Devastator: Ahh, an unexpected event..
05:26:42 ER: "First you’ll need a “Completed Quests” section since you actually managed to complete a quest and also not die."
05:28:44 ER: I do like how violently Katia manipulates her imaginary user interface
05:33:38 MJ: I just realized Katia's name has kat in the name
05:36:13 Devastator: Sadly, doesn't look like she's going to become sabre-katia from vampire infection, but that's ok. ;-p
05:39:05 ER: I'm just going to submit "that's the sun" and cross my fingers that it's a fakeout. :P
05:39:57 ER: after all, it was night time when we started so katia might be surprised to see light coming in from outside
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07:16:11 ER: survived to level 3, which means I get to play with level 2 spells now
07:17:03 ER: I only get to learn one new spell for leveling up, but the sorc also gets to replace one known spell with a new one each level.
07:17:50 ER: so if I drop my burning hands or something, I can pick up two level two spells
07:18:57 ER: oh yeah, and sorc gets METAMAGIC at level 3 as well, so I can make this stuff lengthened or distant or heightened or silenced and such
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09:29:07 syv:
Piecewise, I've been playing DaS 2 lately. On NG++, just going through with my first char who's leveled into being good at everything.
09:29:30 syv: The game has really really fun player mechanics, meh everything else, essentially.
09:30:31 ER: Kinda wish it had a kick instead of guard break though. >.>
09:30:44 syv: It's not as good as DaS 1 overall, if you want to go back to an older game in the series, do DaS 1 with one of the overhaul mods.
09:30:58 syv: The guard break is a phenomenal mechanic.
09:31:08 ER: how can I kick someone off the edge if I can't kick
09:31:21 ER: I do really like guard break criticals though
09:31:38 syv: Shield bash, poise breaking, guard break knockback...
09:31:51 ER: every time I break something's guard in DS1 I'm like "awwwwww... no critical."
09:32:11 syv: Literally all the same stuff as in DaS 1, except for the kick, plus some extra stuff.
09:33:03 syv: And the kick really just sucks anyway. In PvP its only reak uses are safe backstabs, and comboing with spears.
09:33:43 ER: I think the kick inf DS3 always breaks shields
09:34:36 syv: Well, that's an improvement.
09:34:45 syv: In DaS 1 you need to use O
09:35:56 ER: It is kinda odd how in DS1 the kick will only really knock down shields for the weak enemies at the start of the game
09:36:37 ER: you use it for spearie hollows and to knock things off of things
09:38:06 ER: it's funny to use it on the forest NPCs
09:38:18 syv: Oh! I forgot roundhouse kicks in DaS. Those are very niche, but actually are fairly useful. And look stupid awesome.
09:39:11 ER: oh yeah, there is a weapon moveset in DS2 which includes a dropkick
09:40:02 syv: DaS 2 has so many great movesets.
09:41:17 syv: DaS 1 is way too heavy on just giving weapons impractical R2s, and leaving them otherwise identical to the other weapons in class. Or, worse, just straight up debuffing weapons by increasing end lag.
09:41:38 syv: "What's that? You like the greatsword better than the zweihander? Well too bad, it's strictly worse."
09:42:17 syv: Also, the zwei is right at the start of the game and is so strong. Grr.
09:43:11 ER: I think the reason behind them putting the zwei so early in the game is that they figured that the skellies would scare people off until they're higher level
09:43:11 syv: The thrust is kinda neat, but the only place I've seen it used well is Sen's. And Sen's kinda sucks for UGSs in general.
09:43:35 syv: It could still be harder to wield.
09:43:41 syv: It's like 14 strength to use?
09:44:30 ER: does kinda seem like "just run past everything" wasn't an anticipated strategy. :P
09:44:31 syv: I think the Greatsword needs 19...
09:44:59 ER: you need the greatsword to cosplay Guts though
09:45:33 syv: Is there any armor which looks like his, and isn't Artorias' set?
09:46:01 ER: DS1 does not handle capes well
09:46:19 syv: It handles capes at all? :P
09:46:37 syv: I guess SKs have a tiny little sad cape.
09:47:51 syv: DaS 2 handles capes well. And generally just has good looking armor. Which is actually useful and will save your life, unlike DaS 3.
09:48:16 ER: may as well call them costumes in DS3~
09:48:44 syv: Except they still have weight, which DOES penalize you somewhat.
09:49:32 ER: but you can wear most not-super-heavy stuff and stay in light rolls
09:49:33 syv: Actually, doesn't it also affect stamina use?
09:51:38 syv: I remember seeing a video about the... gotthard twin swords, I think. The rolling attack. The guy went into PvP utterly naked, with only the swords, and single digit % of encumberance. Each roll took only a tiny scrape of stamina, so he could just roll twenty times in a roll, randomly sprinkling in the uncounterable rolling R1s of the weapon.
09:51:44 ER: how does Hell seem, BTW? horribly broken?
09:52:15 syv: Not yet. Guns are very dangerous, which is logical.
09:52:43 syv: I think she also rolled really well for that hit? 17 after bonus?
09:53:09 ER: she rolled a 15, +2 skill bonus, -5 evasion penalty
09:53:35 ER: It was a narrow miss at first because I fogot her skill -_-
09:54:11 syv: I do think skills are a bit harsh. Starting them all off at -2 kinda forces the player to specialize, and they're mostly general enough that you want all of them.
09:54:57 ER: Yeah, I just wanted to allow for some specialization
09:54:58 syv: But maybe that's intended? If it's a tactical game, you presumably want a spread of specialties.
09:56:14 syv: Oh, that reminds me. I felt like LW2 was a pretty good stealth game, though I think I modded it even more heavily. In my game, suppressed killshots didn't break concealment, even if the rest of the pod remained alive.
09:56:53 ER: I didn't feel like it was too restrictive when making my NPCs, but they're also pretty specialized.
09:57:25 syv: And I found it pretty fun to play the objective oriented missions with only one or two operatives, sneaking past everything to get to the goal, then extracting fast after.
09:57:39 syv: Are the NPCs created equal to me? :<
09:58:07 ER: She is. Plus the pistol and armor.
09:58:44 ER: The other two are slightly nerfed, only 5 stat points for them both and one only has 10 skill points
09:59:39 ER: You did hear all three with that super good perception roll.
10:00:39 syv: Well, yes, but I was hoping they wouldn't be on the same side. Which is to mean, same team. And also same side of the wall, which seems to be the case.
10:03:36 ER: Maybe I should be providing more information. The armor was just a brainslip, sorry, she's wearing leather and metal combat armor.
10:04:03 syv: Hmm. Well, that won't chabge my strategy.
10:04:27 syv: Does the pain mean I'm now unable to use guns?
10:04:37 syv: Because they require 3 focus and I have 1?
10:05:12 syv: Hmm. I'm unable to *aim*, but can still snapshot, yes?
10:06:20 syv: Should I loop
MJ back into the PM thread?
10:07:28 ER: didn't notice that I missed that, hmm
10:08:58 syv: Part of why I went with this plan is to test the limits of the system. Is the door slamming actually a workable idea, or will it automatically fail due to her turn not ending until she's shooting at me?
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10:11:03 ER: Well, it would give you a reaction melee if she moved into an adjacent tile while you have spare movement.
10:11:30 ER: and you could rule that a door counts as some sort of melee weapon :P
10:11:37 syv: So moving back to the toilet so I have something to push off of would make it unworkable?
10:12:02 ER: Yeah, melee range is normally 1 tile
10:12:20 ER: No moving when it's not your turn really
10:15:33 syv: ...When I was like eight, I knocked my father unconscious, basically doing this exact thing. He was screwing with me by growling like a monster, and I knew he was behind a door, but was too scared to just open it, so I *bodyslammed* the door as hard as I could. It slammed into his head, he walked out about five feet, clutching his head, then just fell over.
10:15:47 syv: That just popped into my brain.
10:20:52 syv: Oh god Katia is so adorable
10:23:21 syv: I feel like when she goes back to Anvil, ASOTIL will conveniently be right there, and then die to Gharug.
10:54:23 ER: I'm not forcing you into changing plans here, btw
10:54:58 ER: Just stopping here in case you do want to switch gears.
11:40:45 ER: okay, why do I keep rolling sixes for lethal damage
11:45:22 ER: the dice just seem crazy for this game
11:46:11 ER: I've allowed for some pretty crazy skill modifiers and stuff but this is just the pure rolls being radical
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12:04:11 ER: you did just barely fail to knock someone out though.
12:11:20 ER: actually, the medic going before you is closer to an advantage for you :V
12:14:39 ER: you know, the
MJ of the group~
12:15:26 ER: this system IS lethal enough that healing isn't extremely useful during combat
12:41:05 ER: fortunately you didn't take any more damage
12:41:42 ER: I mean, I probably *could* have hurt you if I really wanted to, but I didn't~
12:48:23 syv: Hmm. Chances are I'm not gonna do this without being hit. Well, chances are that I'm not gonna do this, but whatever. What would the roll to grab those painkillers be?
12:49:07 ER: Loose pills, you'd pretty much need to be out of combat to pick them up
12:49:46 syv: Strike says that "each melee skill roll has a penalty equal to the number of times you've struck this turn".
12:50:04 syv: Does that mean that striking *then* parrying gives a penalty to the parry roll?
12:50:08 ER: Mohawk dude is holding some nice combat drugs which he absolutely cannot use because he's drunk.
12:50:53 ER: I hadn't considered it, but... yeah sure that makes sense
12:51:18 syv: ...Wait, it doesn't matter. Striking and parrying both end turn on rolling less than eight.
12:51:25 syv: So there's no penalty to parrying first.
12:51:40 syv: Parrying always ends turn.
12:51:50 syv: syvarris reading comprehension: 0
12:52:59 ER: also, Initiative rolls use maximum speed rather than current speed, because that wouldn't make sense
12:54:44 syv: Hrm. Would I get any penalty for moving back and grabbing a 2x4? Or would that just be automatic success actions only?
12:55:13 syv: ...Was there a rule about enemies getting attacks of opportunity after you leave melee range? Grr.
12:55:48 ER: Attack of oppurtunity when they move into range, out of range, and when they attack in your range
12:56:12 ER: which would include someone with a pistol shooting at someone else while standing near you
12:56:48 syv: Eh? So wouldn't that mean the punk could hit me after I hit him?
12:57:23 ER: If your attack doesn't disable him
12:58:42 syv: Debating between doing the clearly best thing in-system, or doing what I'd actually do.
12:59:43 ER: ...assume that you understand the strange fight-physics of this universe.
13:00:00 syv: ...Meh, the latter. I've already been playing sub optimally for accuracy, might as well stick sith it.
13:00:37 syv: Err. So I should behave as I would if I suddenly learned to throw knives effectively? :P
13:01:02 syv: Waaait, I can't throw a knife. It's focus 2.
13:01:54 syv: Are both the people in melee range, and therefore receiving AoOs on me?
13:02:49 syv: What does knockdown do in this system?
13:03:43 ER: Can't move or melee while knocked down, standing up ends your turn
13:04:21 ER: it's hell I don't have to explain shit
13:04:44 ER: slash I have no idea how real fights work
13:05:03 syv: Can I move past punk dude?
13:05:38 ER: Hmm. Poise roll to do that.
13:06:42 syv: Heh, I was considering fleeing through the window. My poise stat is needed for that, and explicitly says "Not so [good] for fleeing"
13:07:27 ER: In case it was unclear, you can NOT see the ground from the window
13:08:35 syv: As in, I can see something out the window which makes it clear that I'm high up? Or could I not just be high enough that I can't see the ground?
13:09:44 ER: The latter, you haven't gotten close enough to it to be sure either way.
13:12:59 syv: If someone rolls a 4 or 5 for lethal damage, are they too injured to fight?
13:13:21 ER: Yes, and they will die quite quickly.
13:13:40 ER: I mostly added that to give medics something more to do :V
13:14:00 syv: You have successfully made a system which heavily encourages your own playstyle.
13:15:05 syv: I keep trying to think of reasons to make my action something other than "stab the bastard", and so far the only one which comes close is "run away for a moment so I can grab a 2x4 and then beat the bastard", but even that is heavily debatable.
13:16:06 syv: He hasn't taken any defensive actions, so I'm likely to hit with melee, and if I run first he gets the first hit, and is *himself* likely to hit. Any hit is probably lethal.
13:17:05 syv: As far as attacks available, grappling is near useless, kicking *might* oneshot him on pain, but is less guaranteed than stabbing, since he can roll resistance, and seems to have good resistance.
13:17:14 ER: most rolls of the d6 *could* be survived, even by someone with minimal never-die
13:18:26 syv: I would've gone for nonlethal before being shot, buuut yeah, not anymore. I can't flee, either. Parrying is simply countered by not attacking and letting gun girl shoot me. I can't provoke attacks after parrying, either.
13:19:25 syv: So... yeah. The best course of action seems to be evade (free), strike until he dies or I fumble, burst down to the 2x4, swap it out, then take cover and parry, I guess.
13:20:21 ER: Note that Evade isn't completely free, if you roll 8 or lower it ends your turn
13:20:37 syv: Yeah, but I have +2 agility, and it's 3d6.
13:21:21 syv: I have a 50% chance of improving my odds, and less than... whatever low number 6 on 3d6 is for lowering them.
13:22:29 syv: This place is still a deathtrap, no real cover from that gun...
13:22:46 syv: Can I evade the gun girl without seeing her?
13:23:24 syv: 2x4 grabbing might get me killed, then.
13:23:51 syv: If I see her, evade, then move out of view, do I retain the bonus...?
13:24:35 syv: Screw it, I've thought about this long enough.
13:29:23 ER: Maybe the fact that you are maybe theoretically able to talk your way out of it doesn't excuse the fact that this scenario was made with no intention of even trying to be fair.
13:30:39 syv: No, fuck these people, they tried to kill me. They all die.
13:32:02 ER: ...I think that moving over to pick something up, then moving again will require a Poise roll to manuver, though
13:34:17 syv: If it does, just skip that whole action segment. A failure gets me killed, and the 2x4 is only a slight advantage.
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14:07:09 Devastator: How was the update?
14:14:13 syv: Prequel's update was good and adorable.
14:14:38 syv: Though the story moves at a glacial pace, unlike AoT, just about every scene on its own is enjoyable.
14:15:35 Devastator: I hope Katia grabs some cash before leaving, at least.
14:16:26 Devastator: Oh, that's venison Katia's eating near the end scene, there.
14:19:18 syv: I figured, yeah? Does venison have a primary effect beyond "Restore Fatigue"?
14:21:26 Devastator: primary effect is restore health.
14:21:51 syv: Did Katia lose any health in that "fight"?
14:23:04 Devastator: Probably. She fought the greater impmaster murderboss.
14:23:28 syv: Has she not slept since then?
14:23:42 syv: ...Did Oblivion not have gradual passive HP regen?
14:24:08 syv: I remember frantically spamming cheap restoration spells CONSTANTLY, but I don't actually recall whether that was for healing or levelups.
14:24:19 Devastator: The game still had some standards at that point. ;-p
14:25:37 syv: Does Skyrim have passive regwn?
14:26:13 syv: Frankly, passive regen makes sense and is a good mechanic, if it's gradual enough.
14:26:41 syv: Considering it's wholly possible to spend days adventuring, you should get SOME regeneration over that time.
14:27:02 Devastator: It's unnecessary in Oblivion because you have passive magic regeneration.
14:28:08 Devastator: Morrowind had neither, unless you put some on your equipment, which was readily available for health, and rarer for magic.
14:28:41 syv: How about Daggerfall? Better yet, Arena.
14:29:51 Devastator: Arena had no regen available of either type, and Daggerfall used a similar system. You would have to rest in-dungeon or drink potions.
14:30:22 syv: Obviously arena was the best, and the series has gone downhill since.
14:30:30 Devastator: Nah, Morrowind was the best.
14:30:53 syv: Damn casuls and their equipment of regeneration. And range cheese. And levitation cheese.
14:31:52 Devastator: Gameworld felt bigger than the later three-dimensional games, it had the most personal freedom, and it provided the most distinctive locations.
14:32:19 syv: Also, it wasn't generic high fantasy.
14:32:51 Devastator: Yeah. It had lots of the background information written by drug-fueled sleep-deprived madmen.
14:33:13 syv: Better than boring suits with no creativity.
14:33:24 Devastator: Like when Katia talks about dark elf nobles married to clones of themselves? That actually exists.
14:33:25 syv: Or whoever the hell wrote Skyrim.
14:33:36 Devastator: MMO design teams. ;-p
14:33:57 syv: I actually know most of Morrowind's lore, because people love to talk about and it's interesting to read about.
14:34:24 Devastator: It's also fucked up.
14:34:46 Devastator: I do also like having a giant meteor just hanging over the biggest city.
14:34:59 syv: I still get flabbergasted by people complementing Skyrim's writing, though. Virtually none of it makes sense. and what does is generic and stupid.
14:35:16 Devastator: but yeah, it's unimpressive.
14:35:49 Devastator: No room to interpret the player character, which is probably what I find the single most annoying bit.
14:37:17 Devastator: Of course, because they had to give the player special powers, or else you might face something challenging.
14:37:29 Devastator: That's why all the damn questlines feature things solveable by pressing E.
14:37:35 syv: No, the game was mostly a joke even without shouts.
14:38:26 syv: If you leveled lots of non-combat skills, never health, and went wandering places you shouldn't, it *was* possible to find enemies who could oneshot you, and that would need shouts.
14:38:36 syv: Beyond that, no, game was easy and boring.
14:39:15 syv: I tried to mod it to have an interesting combat system, mods failed, eventually I discovered Dark Souls, and then, well, yeah.
14:39:19 Devastator: about the oneshot you thing.. less so than you'd expect.
14:39:50 syv: I was actually always oneshot by the three leader dudes in the bandit fortress I learned about.
14:39:58 syv: Special cinematics and everything.
14:40:23 Devastator: Usually I found that it peaked out at 'close to one-shot', but rarely ever crossed that threshold.
14:40:27 Devastator: except for beam spells.
14:41:15 syv: I always leveled stamina, had super high stealth, archery, and crafting skills, basically no good armor, and decent one-handed.
14:41:41 syv: So the bandit captains did enough damage to auto-enter cinematic kill animations
14:41:46 Devastator: I was playing a character who never earned experience, and beat everything by punching. ;-p
14:42:04 syv: But backstab cheese still killed everyone, with some save/loading and the lure shout/
14:42:32 syv: After that I realized I was having fun with the game, which made me realize I wasn't having fun the rest of the time, so I quit playing.
14:42:37 Devastator: You could also kill everyone with just the force 1 shout, which is forced upon you early in the game. ;-p
14:43:17 Devastator: I spent a lot of time trying to break things, but the second half of the game looked really barren.
14:43:23 Devastator: so things just petered out.
14:43:32 syv: I never even got to the second half.
14:44:25 syv: I think the farthest I got in the main quest was talking to the graybeards, and beyond that I just wandered around for awhile before getting bored.
14:45:53 Devastator: I think I lost interest when I found out I couldn't have the dark brotherhood kidnap me from the inside of someone's mind, because I wasn't allowed to sleep in a bed owned by someone else.
14:46:37 Devastator: Yeah. Setting up something truly ridiculous like that, and having it disallowed due to such a ham-handed rule, didn't encourage me.
14:48:23 syv: The Dark Brotherhood was mostly disappointing anyway. The quests were morally justifiable, at least the ones I did, and the characters were largely boring and anti-hero ish. Cicero was cool, and they had a really-1000-years-old loli vampire, who brags about honey trapping a pedophile when you first meet her, but beyond them, I can't even remember whay the other personalities were.
14:49:25 syv: Also, apparently since the vampire is a kid, she can't be killed during the later quest to murder everyone in the brotherhood.
14:49:30 Devastator: Eh, I wouldn't have joined them, just played a bit to find out what the personality of the kidnapper was, and then wrote in an utterly bizarre exchange between Cat-Dude and the kidnapper, before killing the kidnapper and walking out.
14:49:59 Devastator: I think being kidnapped from inside of someone else's mind would justify a bizarre exchange.
14:51:35 Devastator: The whole joining thing is stupid to begin with, because you can't get to that point unless you've murdered someone to begin with.
14:52:02 Devastator: In Oblivion, you just had someone show up, and tell you you need to murder this specific target to become a member, and do what you will.
14:52:11 Devastator: In Morrowind you had to find the hidden guildhall, but if you did that, you could join.
14:52:51 Devastator: To do that you either have to stumble upon it, or find out who the leader is and ask about him repeatedly to narrow the location down. At that point, if you search for it, you should be able to turn it up.
14:53:00 syv: Also, there's two characters specifically made to be easy to murder. A calm khajiit (I think) jackass who's a proud slaver without any guilt, and a really angry insulting woman who comes as close as possible to cussing you out.
14:53:39 Devastator: In morrowind most of the murder targets aren't particularly strong people, they're just well-spread out and in remote locations.
14:53:51 Devastator: ..which is exactly who you'd send a wandering adventurer to kill.
14:53:54 syv: The third, I believe, was just a generic nord barbarian who's kinda nice, if not guiltless.
14:54:11 syv: Unsurprinsingly, yet again Morrowind comes out ahead.
14:54:22 Devastator: The guild is also legal in Morrowind.
14:54:31 Devastator: if you're arrested for the murder, you can show the guards your writ and they let you off.
14:54:35 syv: I cannot remember what even a single murder contract was, just that they were either avoidable or justified.
14:54:54 syv: So you could progress in the dark brotherhood without doing any evil.
14:54:54 Devastator: It doesn't apply to anyone else you kill. Bodyguards, etc.
14:55:43 syv: Also, you'd always be chosen by the Night Mother, which is insane becuase she's a god or something, and should know you're pure and killing for good reasons.
14:56:00 syv: (Because it's a video game, so murdering jackasses is an inherently good and holy act)
14:57:22 Devastator: I think there's a spread in Morrowind. Some jackasses, at least one default-hostile bandit leader (with a camp in one of the most annoying places to get to.), a couple of powerful people.. Mostly just people who pissed off important dark elf nobles for one reason or another.
14:57:59 Devastator: I'm sure there's one or two you can tell to get on ships and get the hell out of the province, but most of them you have to kill.
14:58:07 syv: Was there any blanket contract for cliff racers?
14:58:43 Devastator: I think there's something like twenty contracts in all available to the player.
14:58:55 Devastator: I'm not sure there are twenty killable NPCs in Skyrim.
15:00:13 syv: There absolutely are, most NPCs weren't essential. Even without counting bandits, I think.
15:00:54 Devastator: bandits aren't NPCs in Skyrim. At least the majority of them aren't. And any NPC with a quest is essential until you complete the relevant quest.
15:01:06 Devastator: If you haven't, I'm not sure it adds up to twenty.
15:02:22 syv: I know I killed a fair number of named civvies while screwing around, and rhey stayed dead. And some of them caused problems, being dead, though I don't recall if there were any *quest* problems. Quests were mostly boring, anyway.
15:03:12 Devastator: to me it seemed like every time I wanted to kill someone, bam, essential.
15:03:32 Devastator: Which wasn't that often, but it came up a few times.
15:03:33 syv: My memory could be flawed, I played it on release, so just over seven years ago.
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17:57:27 Piecewise__: its always weird to log on and see that I have quit
18:21:04 Devastator: Discord is much better where you aren't allowed to quit. ;-p
18:24:02 Devastator: Heh, that was inevitable.
18:24:33 Devastator: (five days ago) Pancake: Saving an additional five hours is concievable, but nearly impossible.
18:24:41 Devastator: (Today) I saved the extra five hours.
18:28:58 Piecewise__: Put those in the time bank
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22:26:55 Piecewise__: Hey you know what this 500 word journal needs?
22:27:16 Piecewise__: Why, lady person in charge of this class
22:53:20 Piecewise__: I desire to murder
23:01:27 Devastator: Save it for the guy poking the laser dog in Mook. ;-p
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