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01:01:17 midnightjaguar: Happy Boxing Day? I think this is Boxing Day.
01:03:28 midnightjaguar: Well Merry belated Christmas as well.
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01:44:23 syv: Man, it's almost like everyone is distracted by a major holiday or something.
02:03:45 Devastator: And yeah, boxing day.
02:08:45 Devastator: Got to use the word 'azimuth' in orders today.
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02:17:41 syv: I keep meaning to catch up on Cult, but I should prolly give up on it. It's clearly not interesting to me.
02:17:58 Devastator: Yeah. It's not resonating with me, either.
02:18:10 Devastator wishes PW ran Barbarians!
02:19:52 syv: That... might be fun. I'unno.
02:20:06 syv: With
Piecewise it's always a "might be fun", really.
02:26:54 Devastator: Wands race 2. Well, going to skip that.
02:27:04 Devastator: good luck for Evicted. I thought the first one burned him out.
02:29:14 syv: Wands Race just seems like an even worse evolution of Arms Race.
02:29:29 syv: Did they even have any kind of structured magic system, or could they just make whatever?
02:30:03 Devastator: Although you got a -2 for something you haven't done before.
02:34:38 syv: Maybe it's my experience with tinker making me biased, but I've never understood why people like Arms Race and its derivatives.
02:35:07 Devastator: Didn't you like Tiniker?
02:35:12 Devastator: It's Tinker with more die rolls.
02:35:41 syv: It seems to largely revolve around just straight up asking for things, and then the result's success being purely random, based on a die roll.
02:35:55 syv: Worse, it's political AND competitive.
02:36:08 syv: Tinker is entirely different.
02:37:00 syv: In Tinker, you generally either had existing mechanical designs with flaws you could fix or circumvent, or anomalous materials with static effects, which you had to try and understand and figure out uses for.
02:37:26 syv: While we did get some "Hey can we get a thing?" stuff later, with the science teams, I never cared for that.
02:37:37 syv: That was Radio's thing, and was basically powergaming.
02:39:13 syv: And yes, it was somewhat luck based, since it depended on GM interpretation, that was controlled by persuasion--not dice.
02:39:32 Devastator: Heh, not that much different, except the politics.
02:39:37 Devastator: I can see not wanting to deal with the politics.
02:39:56 syv: It makes the game worse, but not for me.
02:40:36 syv: My problem with Arms Race is the whole thing of "Improve this flaw!" being a valid action, with at most a stupid excuse being necessary, and the results of said action being determined by die.
02:41:06 Devastator: as opposed to Tinker, where you could make up stuff and get it done based on stupid excuses. ;-p
02:41:55 syv: There's no creativity or thought needed. Perhaps some strategic judgement, since fixing your AA when you opponent has no planes is stupid... but you don't have to think up any decent reasons the flaws would be fixed.
02:42:24 syv: Stupid excuses had worse chances than clever ideas.
02:42:54 syv: Plenty of people made stupid devices which were impractically expensive, because of said stupidity.
02:43:19 syv: The prototyping rules hurt that balance heavily, and were bad, but that was a flaw of Tinker.
02:43:46 Devastator: Plenty of people made stupid devices that were absurdly cheap and common.
02:46:04 syv: Assault suits did have the flaw of a mechanically complex design, in a game where the GM was already fairly overworked and would ignore it, I'll give you that.
02:46:14 Devastator: Assault suits? You mean the general invulnerability, the flight capabilities?
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02:46:24 Devastator: Yeah, those were stupid as fuck.
02:46:39 syv: Assault suits were equally as mobile as battlesuits.
02:46:56 Devastator: Hey, lets go make a universal weapon that renders everything else pointless, because the GM forgot that the power source was huge.
02:47:06 Devastator: Those were also stupid, but at least less cheap.
02:47:13 syv: The only difference was the armor, which ended up being equivalent as well, for the aforementioned reasons.
02:47:26 midnightjaguar: I mean it’s
dev complaining about
ER but what specifically?
02:47:36 syv: Oh, balance issues? Sure, sure, Tinker led to lots of balance issues.
02:47:42 Devastator: I was talking about how Arms Race games aren't much different than Tinker.
02:47:53 syv: Nothing about the blasters was at all stupid in universe, though.
02:47:57 Devastator: You ask for what you want, and you get it.
02:48:07 Devastator: other than the power source, and the method of firing.
02:48:32 syv: And, like he frequently is with
ER, he's objectively wrong and has misremembered details.
02:49:09 Devastator:
Syv, however, is often in exactly the same boat..
02:49:40 syv:
Dev, the blasters were powered by a source that had the specific trait of an extreme discharge rate. It makes sense to make pulse lasers with that, as opposed to constant lasers.
02:49:50 midnightjaguar: I think at this point in time everyone’s going to be misrembering at least some details just due to the time span since it ended and began.
02:49:50 syv: Pulse lasers also just make more sense flat out.
02:50:19 syv: At least with Tinker, I have very specific and good memory of a limited selection of things.
02:50:51 syv: I could be somewhat wrong, but I am very very sure about certain stuff, like AS vs BS mobility, and blaster design.
02:50:53 Devastator: I'm not complaining about the pulse laser idea. I'm complaining about both the impossible power source, and the sheer absurdity of the firing mechanism. Not that it operated in pulses.
02:51:11 syv: Absurdity of the firing mechanism? Please expand?
02:51:34 syv: As for the impossible power source, that's my point about Arms Race and Tinker being different.
02:51:54 Devastator: The beam could break apart really expensive armour that was nearly invulnerable to lasers. But it didn't break itself. Instead you had a weapon that was good for unlimited usage.
02:52:10 syv: In Tinker, we got bluraditite from
Piecewise, as a random thing nobody asked for or understood at first.
02:52:16 Devastator: At the power levels from blasters, it should have either been very huge, or operated with destructive capabilities.
02:52:30 Devastator: Aye, and it was infinitely reproducable, and
PW forgot about the need for shielding.
02:52:30 syv: In Arms Race, if you want an impossible power source, you ask for an impossible power source, and hope for a 5.
02:52:47 Devastator: You did get your perfect heatsink for your EMG..
02:53:19 Devastator: They just don't seem that different to me. Arms race you can get absurd imbalances, in just the same way.
02:53:22 syv: Here's where I could be wrong, but to my memory, blasters couldn't defeat battlesuit grade armoe without melting.
02:53:47 midnightjaguar: I think they did have a melting point
02:53:48 syv: It's the difference between being creative with what's handed to you, and just getting a broken thing handed to you.
02:53:55 midnightjaguar: I vaguely rember then having settings
02:54:11 syv: Ten shots, or spend the full battey on one, and melt it.
02:54:12 Devastator: What were the settings for?
02:54:32 syv: I just don't recall the armor penetration tests for them versus BS armor.
02:54:49 Devastator: I'm pretty sure they were designed to do explicitly that.
02:54:56 Devastator: That was the exact goal with them.
02:55:02 midnightjaguar: Can’t rember I only really ever played with crystals and the protoaltered
02:55:02 syv: I'm pretty sure they weren't.
02:55:23 syv: The exact goal was oneshotting light armor like longcoats.
02:55:37 syv: The *Testament* was designed to defeat BS armor.
02:55:38 Devastator: But you could do that without any new weapons..
02:56:00 syv: Yeah, but when was Tinker optimized for being practical?
02:57:27 Devastator: Seems far too low, considering that there was a requirement to make something to defeat BS armour in order to get accepted into the tinker 'in group.'
02:57:31 syv: You were right, they could defeat one layer.
02:58:07 syv: If you're referring to Pyro's test, that was explicitly a test of creativity.
02:58:56 syv: I'll agree that lasers defeating BS plate at all was stupid, but that *was*
Piecewise's decision, before Tinker ever came into the equation.
03:00:13 syv: My point stands. Blifles were a good design, in a stupid universe. They were *clever*.
03:00:14 Devastator: They were pretty much immune to lasers, except from a blaster rifle, which hit harder than a nuke.
03:00:36 Devastator: They were stupid. The design was 'take a chunk of space magic, shove it in a laser.'
03:00:51 syv: It explicitly says that they're equal in strength to a cutting laser.
03:01:50 syv: And that derived from Miyamoto, back during his first mission in his BS, getting damaged by a mining laser described as similar strength to a cutting laser.
03:01:52 Devastator: and the next line says otherwise..
03:01:52 midnightjaguar: I think that means it can deafest BS with on shot
03:02:14 Devastator: nukes were wussy, then.
03:02:19 syv: "uses a blueshard battery to allow for 10 microsecond pulses per clip equaling about 5 seconds of Cutting Laser power per shot, enough to penetrate and kill a target armored with a single layer of battlesuit plate. "
03:02:33 syv: Battlesuits had five layers of armor.
03:03:06 syv: You'd need five blifle shots, aiming and hitting at the same spot and angle, to kill a BS.
03:03:17 syv: OR a meltdown shot, depending on how
PW was feeling.
03:03:41 Devastator: Or one shot, if you pull the trigger a few times.
03:03:42 syv: Were I to rule it, that'd take out three or four layers, but
PW might make armor penetration linear.
03:03:55 syv: Please.
PW never ran the game like that.
03:03:56 midnightjaguar: Where did dubs find the design for the battle suits. I always just found them cool looking
03:04:19 syv: One attack was one turn, regardless of durstion of attack.
03:04:48 syv: Plus, aiming five semiauto shots at a single location on a moving target would be *hellish*, IRL.
03:04:59 syv: That wouldn't happen by game or life mechanics.
03:05:15 Devastator: well, to be fair, neither would accidently destroying a galaxy-spanning empire.
03:05:18 syv: Think they were original with a few disparate influences,
MJ.
03:05:34 midnightjaguar: Ah. I was more referring to the piece of art on the wiki.
03:05:37 syv: That totally would happen by game mechanics, Devvy-doo. ;P
03:05:39 Devastator: Due to collapse of space-magic, while preserving the more space-magic dependant Steve-ocracy..
03:06:48 syv: That image was player-editted, but the original may have been from him. It's been awhile.
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03:07:24 Devastator: don't know where that came from.
03:07:29 Devastator: probably player-made, really.
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03:09:15 syv: ...It's also a bit wrong, since BS armor was ~20 inches thick, IIRC.
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03:11:29 syv: I like that line about a three-token microwave amp being just as lethal to a BS pilot as any other person.
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03:11:47 syv:
Dev, you've got all these complaints about
ER, but you can't even focus on the serious ones. ;P
03:11:51 syv: (
syv) I like that line about a three-token microwave amp being just as lethal to a BS pilot as any other person.
03:12:03 Devastator: You know very well I've talked about that specific one before.
03:12:13 midnightjaguar: For once I am actually BRB.
03:12:26 syv: Talking to you, it's like every single aspect of
ER was bad, with no good traits at all.
03:12:39 syv: You say it was a great game, but have nothing but complaints about it.
03:13:02 Devastator: I can't remininsce about the good times I had playing it,
syv, because I didn't have any. Those were for other people.
03:14:06 syv: I can reminsce about good times I didn't have while playing it. There was a lot of
ER that was fun to read, before and after I joined.
03:14:37 midnightjaguar: The serial killer mission was hilarious.
03:15:13 syv: Miyamoto getting hit, and *damaged*, by a laser was a big shock, and was awesome. The whole sound worm mission was exciting, and the escape update had me on the edge of my seat, especially with the last (?) update's *soundtrack*.
03:15:28 Devastator: Sound worm mission was very good.
03:15:36 syv: The blifle was a good, clever design, which I respect, despite being 100% Radio's idea.
03:15:45 syv: But you never mention anything being good.
03:15:46 Devastator: blifle was laser + space magic.
03:15:53 syv: You're always complaining.
03:16:41 syv: Yes, and Alida becoming a vertical wolf is literally just a wish. Happens by pure fiat.
03:17:22 syv: It's an interesting thing that happens, which shouldn't degrade the game. Being given by fiat isn't a flaw.
03:17:39 midnightjaguar: Oh hey because I was reminded of sythnflesh Apparently some company has started trying to make artificial muscles and it’s really cool.
03:17:49 syv: It's also missing more that the Blifle does have. We couldn't have made a super amo by attaching a blurad to one.
03:17:59 Devastator: Yeah you could have.
03:18:11 syv: We could have made a better laser by attaching blurad to one, but it wouldn't have been as good.
03:18:41 Devastator: ..That's what you did, really.
03:18:43 syv: Making it a pulse laser, a design particularly well suited to a high-capacity quick-discharge fragile power source... was a clever idea.
03:19:24 syv: We couldn't have made a better amp, the stupid arbitrary rules which governed the universe didn't work that way.
03:19:41 syv: Also, like. Lots of people made tinker designs... which were *bad*.
03:20:12 Devastator: but you're making similarily unprovable statements.
03:20:20 syv: No, we didn't try a thousand stupid ideas. That doesn't mean they weren't stupid.
03:20:24 Devastator: I can't say how well a laser not using pulse mechanisms would have worked, because it wasn't done.
03:20:34 Devastator: So I can't say the idea helped it in any way.
03:20:58 syv: We had successful designs, and failed designs, which seemed to map well tk cleverness of the design, and understanding of
PW's design/perception of his world.
03:21:16 syv: Well, I think that one was actually tested.
03:21:20 Devastator: What were the failed designs?
03:21:46 syv: The many many things which were way too expensive and/or weren't included in the armory.
03:22:07 Devastator: Could you pick one?
03:22:10 syv: The sibilus pops to mind. Various automanip tools, and delivery systems. Shard grenades.
03:22:27 syv: That drone laser thing I tried to make for Pyro's test was bad.
03:22:48 syv: I tried a few Forcefield plasma guns, but nothing worked very well.
03:23:31 syv: Actually, I think all our tinkered plasma guns sucked. The plasma caster was pure fiat Automanip magic, and we couldn't replicate that.
03:24:09 syv: The cyanine suicide pills/grenades I tried for were shot down fast...
03:24:19 syv: I'm unsure about Mirrsen's PEW.
03:24:52 Devastator: The PEW was fine until someone pointed out that he was going to play silly buggers with the price to hand them out for free.
03:25:05 Devastator: Would have been better than fine if he ever attached the super-cooling space magic to it.
03:25:05 syv: It was always prohibitvely expensive to me, but I think he ended up working out a way to make it somewhat practical. I think the idea where it was integrated with an AS, ro use the armor as a heatsink, made it economical.
03:26:21 syv: Don't know why that was never tried. Too late, probably. After he left.
03:26:42 syv: OH LOOK AT THAT. SOMEONE NEEDED TO THINK OF A SPECIFIC COMPATIBILITY FOR THESE TO ITEMS TO BE USEFUL.
03:27:05 Devastator: Oh look at that, the GM gave you an item specifically intended to turn a 'no' into a 'yes', and you never noticed.
03:27:22 syv: We discussed a bunch of uses for the coldrods, but none of our ideas (mostly armor related) worked. Because they were bad.
03:27:40 syv: Sean spent a long time working on the PEW, but never had as good a solution.
03:27:46 Devastator: Very similar to arms race that.
03:28:00 syv: It's the exact opposite of Arms Race.
03:28:11 syv: In AR you just roll until you get your thing.
03:28:14 Devastator: Very similar. Having a compatability which the payers don't notice?
03:28:34 syv: In Tinker we sometimes got materials which had uses, but someone had to see them.
03:28:59 syv: Tinker was entirely about having xyz items, and abc problems, and matching them.
03:29:16 syv: Arms Race--from what I've seen, which isn't much--is entirely abour rolling for success until you roll high/
03:29:28 syv: Having good ideas at most gives you minor boosts.
03:29:46 syv: In Tinker, no rolls were involved in the Blifle's design.
03:29:55 Devastator: Yeah, to it's detriment.
03:29:59 syv: Tje same thing in Arms Race would have failed if it got a 3, 1, and 4.
03:30:25 Devastator: Arms race isn't generally about the rolls at all. It's figuring out how the sim element works and exploiting that.
03:30:38 syv: The PEW was bad without a specific, suitable improvement. But in Arms Race would've been amazing if it rolled 5, 5, 5.
03:31:18 Devastator: Maybe the PEW just rolled badly.
03:31:21 syv: Then it isn't about the design at all. Or is the sim somehow related to the design, beyond "Tjis system makes aircraft awesome. Let's roll for better aircraft constantly."
03:31:56 syv: "X and Y are different because one doesn't have Z." "Maybe both had Z."
03:32:09 syv: such argument, so persuasion.
03:32:57 syv: What was it that you wanted with
MJ,
Dev.
03:33:08 Devastator: Generally, yeah, that's the case. It's like 'This game gives good results for designs which integrate space magic. Lets make sure that all our designs shove magic artifacts in things.'
03:33:13 Devastator: Mostly just wanted to say hi.
03:33:32 midnightjaguar: Cool. How was your Christmas
dev?
03:33:51 syv: That's still very different from Tinker.
03:34:15 syv: In Tinker, almost nothing mattered or really affected the game, and we certainly didn't aim for the truly relevant stuff.
03:34:57 Devastator: Eh, central mechanic against a sideline.
03:35:23 syv: In Tinker, good "play" revolved around getting a theoretically good item at a low price. In AR, good play revolves around determining the best category of equipment, and rolling for it as often as possible.
03:35:56 Devastator: Not usually. It's determining the best category of equipment and rolling for it at the appropriate frequency, along with determining the best uses for revisions.
03:36:16 syv: Fine. It still has nothing to do with design.
03:36:41 Devastator: There's a fair bit of variety as for how mechanics work, too. The one with the skyships failed because one side didn't use revisions properly and the other side did.
03:36:44 syv: "How often can we roll for the good things? Which bad rolls are impactful?"
03:37:08 syv: Still. Nothing like tinker.
03:38:36 Devastator: Not that different. It's just that in tinker, good stuff was 'things that integrated plot devices'. Usually in arms race, you can also get a boost simply from having a good statement about a design, which is why I can't play that, because I like to talk down other designs as well, which sometimes results in a penalty when they inevitably win.
03:39:58 syv: Uh. Is a non-sequitur even a logical fallacy?
03:40:49 Devastator: You mentioned earlier about how having a good explanation for something was a benefit in Tinker, and that was different than in arms race.
03:42:15 syv: You can't talk up an impossible idea, and if you fail to describe why a good idea is good, it may still be good if
Piecewise understood.
03:42:33 syv: It didn't have machanically integrated persuasion.
03:42:43 Devastator: Yeah, very similar.
03:42:46 Devastator: just replace
PW with GM.
03:43:03 syv: In arms race you can talk up a bad idea.
03:43:13 Devastator: In
ER, you could talk up a bad idea, too.
03:43:18 syv: You get shit by fiat without an explanation.
03:43:43 syv: You said "Yeah", to my previous statement, which explicitly disagrees with your statement there.
03:44:37 Devastator: You can do both of those in both games, and they're a big part of each.
03:44:42 Devastator: So yeah, very similar.
03:44:54 syv: Fine, I said "impossible", and you said "bad".
03:45:15 syv: You are a bad conversationalist.
03:45:18 Devastator: You can totally talk up impossible ideas in both.
03:45:27 Devastator: Sorry, I misread that.
03:45:30 Devastator: thought you said 'can'.
03:46:07 syv: In Arms Race, if you get a 4+1 because the GM liked your explanation, it's better than the 4 you'd get if the GM understood your idea. In Tinker, if you came up with a good idea, and explain it, you get a good result. If you come up with a good idea, don't explain it, and
Piecewise understands anyway, you get a good result.
03:46:44 syv: In Tinker, if you come up with a good idea, and explain it, you get a good result. In AR, you come up with a good idea, and explain it, but roll a 1+1, you get a bad result.
03:47:34 Devastator: "It's Tinker with more die rolls."
03:47:52 syv: It's... like, if in DaS, if you time a parry perfectly, you get rewarded with a riposte 100% of the time you do it. Not 50%. Or 67%. And you don't just randomly get ripostes when blocking without parrying.
03:48:20 syv: It's gambling with tinker competence assisting your odds.
03:48:39 syv: It's like PUBG vs Tribes II.
03:48:58 syv: Being good at shooters, and communicating with your team well, is useful for both.
03:49:34 syv: But in one, that's 100% of individual success, and in the other, there's a lot more luck.
03:49:49 Devastator: It's not 100%, or you wouldn't have failed some of your good ideas.
03:50:20 syv: They weren't good. They were creative, but they had flaws due to incomplete information or misunderstandings.
03:50:53 syv: If I were "better" at Tinker, I'd have tried fewer of them, and more ideas that would have worked.
03:51:06 Devastator: Yeah, very, very similar to arms race.
03:51:14 Devastator: It really is just arms race with fewer dice rolls.
03:51:31 syv: You just say that without supporting it, repeatedly.
03:52:05 Devastator: Okay. What would you like examples of?
03:52:20 syv: Heh. If you are trolling me, that'd actually be pretty funny, since when you got me arguing this you made me *stop* working on PS.
03:52:36 Devastator: (I'm not trolling,
syv.)
03:52:49 Devastator: I am slightly amused at your absolute certaintly about arms race games when you haven't played one.
03:52:52 syv: I don't really think you are.
03:53:02 Devastator: reminds me of
RC's sig.
03:53:10 syv: I know nothing about this, but ha-damn it.
03:53:30 Devastator: Should ask him who he's quoting there.
03:53:53 syv: I used to worry it was me, but ended up deciding that I wouldn't phrase it that way.
03:54:04 syv: "I have strong opinions about it" isn't how I'd write that.
03:54:31 midnightjaguar: If I had to guess it would be himself. That seems like the kind of joke
RC would make
03:54:52 syv: Anyway. Ideas in Arms Race failing purely and completely due to player error, without a roll, or being outvoted/talked down/politics in general.
03:55:18 Devastator: There's Moskurg's three machine guns in Arms Race I.
03:55:33 Devastator: Quite a lot of effort for nothing regardless of rolls.
03:56:05 syv: (I also, admittedly, am basing my perception of Arms Race mostly on information given by you and
ER. I did read an OP and some updates way back, but they could have been flukes.)
03:56:34 Devastator: They had another machine gun 95% as good.
03:56:49 Devastator: so no matter what the roll was, there simply were no improvements to be had.
03:56:49 syv: ...Yeah, that doesn't count.
03:57:05 Devastator: Arstotzka's plant walls in Wands Race 1.
03:57:40 Devastator: They had pretty good rolls, but they simply weren't much use when the other side has napalm.
03:58:14 syv: The blifle and Testament were basically equivalent weapons which were both designed well, and performed in the same roll, but either could have been the sole weapon and likely nothing would have changed. At most the Blifle would've been better, due to the melting mechanic.
03:58:46 syv: Okay. That one's better. Did they have any idea the opponents had Napalm?
03:58:49 midnightjaguar: Nah dude you just make them like fire resistant plant walls :P
03:58:56 Devastator: That is a difference.. duplication of effort didn't matter much in Tinker, because you didn't have limited resources.
03:59:10 Devastator: Not napalm, but they knew we had less advanced fire bombs.
03:59:21 syv: So that was pretty idiotic.
03:59:44 syv: It still doesn't really imply any similarity to Tinker.
04:00:00 Devastator: It's stuff that couldn't have worked regardless of rolls.
04:00:09 syv: It implies weapon and armor functionality being related to the equipment possessed by your enemies.
04:00:18 Devastator: Their steam cannons fully succeeded despite four ones.
04:00:19 syv: Are you gonna claim that was relevant in Tinker?
04:00:27 Devastator: If
ER was better, it would have..
04:00:51 syv: If Tinker was better, peesuasion would've had zero part in it.
04:01:11 syv: ...Persuasion. That is a horrible typo and I feel bad.
04:01:19 Devastator: I don't think it would have been better, actually.
04:01:53 syv: Arguing about what the games would be like in an
04:02:03 syv: "ideal" state is moving the goal posts.
04:02:17 Devastator: Yeah... but you brought that up.
04:02:46 syv: You did, by saying "yeah, if it was better".
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04:03:37 syv: My argument would be more effective with a "No", and your method of creating a "Yes" was moving the goal posts by changing the nature of the subject from the real thing to an ideal thing.
04:03:59 Devastator: It's the difference between a sideline mechanic and a core mechanic.
04:04:16 syv: You'll have to define these two things for me.
04:04:46 Devastator: I'll give it a try.
04:04:47 syv: And explain how they're relevant.
04:05:10 Devastator: Tinker was created to keep people happy doing stuff while not going on missions, while the game was created around the idea of idiots in space going on missions.
04:05:27 Devastator: Arms race was created to explore interactions between people creating objects with certain assumptions in mind.
04:05:52 Devastator: So while I can't define 'core mechanic' against 'sideline mechanic', can you see why I'd consider one belonging to one category, while the other belonging to the other category?
04:06:27 syv: I don't know what you mean.
04:07:02 syv: "Tinker and Arms Race are the same game, when used as a sideline mechanic to
ER, versus being an entire game in itself?"
04:07:21 syv: As in, any difference exist because of their different intended function?
04:08:09 Devastator: That probably would be the die rolls.
04:08:21 Devastator: and the limited resources.
04:08:32 Devastator: Some. Not as much as I'd expect, though.
04:08:45 syv: When I ask a question, don't define a random noun in said question instead of answering.
04:09:10 syv: I have literally no clue what the "some" is supposed to mean.
04:09:38 Devastator: some of the differences.
04:10:28 Devastator: some of the differences between the two, such as the limited resources and die rolls, are a result of the core mechanic vs the sideline mechanic.
04:10:56 syv: Do you mean "of them being a"?
04:11:18 syv: As in, the differences are caused by one being a sideline mechanic to a game, versus the other being an entire game?
04:11:31 Devastator: Yes, that's what I mean.
04:12:10 syv: Counterpoint: Saying that "X is like Y, except with traits A, Bm C, and D
04:12:54 syv: , which were caused by its differing environment." is not a convincing argument of X and Y being basically the same thing.
04:13:10 syv: They're certainly *related*, but are entirely different in practice.
04:13:29 Devastator: Yes, but it's defining where I think the main differences lie, and why I think those differences exist.
04:13:45 Devastator: I don't see why it would follow that they're entirely different.
04:13:55 syv: It's like saying someone who likes housecats will like lions, because they're both felines. It might be true, for some definitions of like, and some people.
04:14:20 syv: I absolutely believe that some people who enjoyed Tinker would enjoy AR. Maybe even for the same reason.
04:14:35 syv: Not as much as tigers, but yes. I'd hate to own one, though.
04:14:55 Devastator: Do you have any other differences that you can think of,
syv? I've demonstrated a few similarities, even ones that exist despite the limited resources and die rolls.
04:16:18 syv: Existence of politics, existence of competition, the general traits which lead to success being entirely different, and the general behaviors which lead to success being entirely different.
04:16:22 Devastator: Those were two where good die rolls didn't overcome bad decision making, and one where bad die rolls and an impossible idea didn't succeed.
04:16:56 Devastator: So die rolls in themselves aren't a deal-breaker preventing the games from being similar.
04:17:14 syv: It's like arguing that Dark Souls and Tales of Berseria are similar games because they're both action/adventure games which take place in a fantasy setting.
04:17:37 syv: Playing them is nothing alike. At most they're cosmetically similar, and in the same genre.
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04:18:02 syv: I'll agree that AR is in the same genre as Tinker, as compared to
ER, PS, or Cult.
04:18:04 Devastator: Could be. Does Berseria have the same model-based and animation-based combat system?
04:18:23 syv: But Tinker doesn't have die rolls or revision.
04:18:35 Devastator: Nah, it sounds to me like you consider Tinker's important elements to be ones different than the ones I think are important.
04:19:27 syv: Because it will entertain me and piss me off, what are Tinker's important elements?
04:20:04 syv: I'm just arguing with
Dev about a minor system which was a part of
a game that died years ago.
04:20:36 Devastator: Plus the tinker council was loaded with politics and argument.
04:21:06 syv: Well, I was blind to that.
04:21:39 Devastator: Freedom of design, setting-based scenario to work around, and unlimited experimentation budget.
04:22:52 syv: Unlimited experimentation budget is relevant. The others are essentially genre, for freedom, and cosmetic, for scenario.
04:23:31 Devastator: A good arms race game needs
a scenario for the people to work from. It's what leads to the interesting mechanics, and not crappy ones like everyone pursing endless missiles.
04:23:47 syv: You can't really make
a design game without freedom of design, or at least it'd be quite hard. Same for an action game without fights.
04:24:46 syv: As for scenario... any interesting mechanics which derived from that would make
a difference from
ER.
04:24:59 Devastator: I think you could make
a design game without freedom of design, actually.
04:25:27 syv: It'd be harder. At least,
a good one. Same as an action game without fights.
04:25:40 Devastator: Not necessarily worse, though..
04:25:51 syv: We had setting, in the sense of tech level, and the UWM as an enemy, but weren't designing things for particularly relevant setting problems.
04:25:53 Devastator: restrictions can define games as well.
04:26:22 syv: That doesn't mean the lack of restrictions is defining in all cases.
04:27:08 syv: If something is broadly assumed for a genre, complying with it isn't
a trait that makes two genre games particularly similar.
04:27:24 syv: ...You know, I'd totally agree AR and Tinker were in the same genre.
04:27:37 syv: Is that all you've been trying to say?
04:27:49 Devastator: More or less, yeah.
04:28:33 syv: (
syv) Maybe it's my experience with tinker making me biased, but I've never understood why people like Arms Race and its derivatives.
04:28:33 syv: (
Devastator) Didn't you like Tiniker?
04:28:33 syv: (
Devastator) It's Tinker with more die rolls.
04:28:55 syv: To be fair, I was hyperbolic with "never understood why".
04:29:28 syv: I suppose "It's Tinker with more die rolls" is also hyperbolic.
04:29:57 syv: Could be argued to simply be mental streamlining for the purpose of making conversation.
04:30:22 Devastator: Or putting things in
a point of view 'why would someone add die rolls to tinker' that might lead to an interesting conversation.
04:31:14 syv: Making things luck based is broadly an improvement for popularity; people love a gamble. And it evens the playing field, so everyone stands
a chance.
04:31:27 syv: Ugh. Yeah. I have no good excuse not to.
04:32:40 Devastator: Could fire up the Spelunky failstream for
a while.
04:35:54 Devastator: You would have gotten to hear me howl in frustration because the game handed me an impossible scenario.. ;-p
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04:49:36 midnightjaguar: I’m back for
a bit
04:49:45 midnightjaguar: How was the rest of the argument?
04:50:17 syv: We kept going until it was realized that we pretty much hold the same position.
04:50:33 syv: Always a disappointing end to
a good argument.
04:51:29 Devastator: Well, got
a change to my predictions of Kingkiller Chronicles book 3..
04:51:30 midnightjaguar: Or it’s completely hilarious. Depends on how much vitriol is used
04:51:38 Devastator: Ever read those,
MJ?
04:51:50 midnightjaguar: What are they about?
04:52:09 midnightjaguar: Oh name of the wind
04:52:17 midnightjaguar: I’ve read the rest one of those
04:53:47 syv: The second is way too exciting, so it's bad for resting~
04:54:35 Devastator: I like them. Lots of stuff hidden inside them.
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04:56:17 syv: I just find Kvothe kind've boring. Also mildly upsetting, his flaws are too close to some of mine.
04:56:38 syv: Biggest thing, though, is just how damn LONG the books are.
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04:57:00 syv: It has a lot of good parts, but also
a lot of slogging.
04:57:15 Devastator: Most of the slow bits have important stuff about the metaplot, so to speak.
04:58:14 syv: And I find the metaplot so glacially slow that's it's more like syrup full of ash than meat.
05:01:11 midnightjaguar: It’s definitely better than the book I’m reading. Mines like black and white morality when it really should be more like Grey and black morality.
05:01:16 Devastator: Miles better than say, the Wheel of Time.
05:02:35 syv: But I don't really read much like that. I vastly prefer short and sweet.
05:03:07 midnightjaguar: I never read wheel of time I’ve heard it’s good but never got into it
05:03:27 Devastator: It's nine books (I think) with about one and
a half books worth of content.
05:04:09 midnightjaguar: Hmm, lot of filler? Or does the author just run out of ideas
05:04:18 Devastator: insane amounts of filler.
05:04:35 Devastator: I think Robert Jordan had every intention of writing them for the rest of his life, and accomplished that.
05:05:02 midnightjaguar: Is it interesting filler at least?
05:06:29 Devastator: But.. yeah. It's frightfully slow.
05:07:09 midnightjaguar: Hmm, when I run out of everything else to read outside of technical Manules I’ll give the first book
a whirl.
05:07:42 syv: And you still won't have read PS:T. Or finished that VN.
05:07:55 syv: Maybe I need to mail you physical novelizations of things.
05:08:24 Devastator: I'd do half of the technical manuals first.
05:09:08 Devastator: I think I'd summarize the seventh book in
a paragraph.
05:09:54 midnightjaguar: I’ll finish it up eventually
Syv.
05:10:06 midnightjaguar: Before the heat death of the universe definetly
05:11:12 syv: Yeah, eventually I'll meet your children and convince them to nag you about it.
05:11:34 Devastator: "Female protagonist #2 arrives at the tower she's spent three books walking towards. She is refused an audience and spends several hours trying to bribe meaningless people and failing. What does happen is confirmation that their kind of magic is the reverse of the kind of magic being used by the protagonists."
05:11:47 Devastator: Rough turn in 888th.
05:12:28 syv: So it's not even
a conclusion to anything,
Dev?
05:12:30 a: polaris, stop freaking out and putting me at the top of the page every time someone posts something.
05:13:31 midnightjaguar: Hmm. I looked it up apprently there’s twelve books and
a prequel
05:13:45 Devastator: Yeah, he wrote 11, and then someone finished them off after he was dead.
05:13:52 Devastator: Really, it's one book.
05:13:56 Devastator: Stop after the first one.
05:14:19 midnightjaguar: Huh, Brandon Sanderson apparently wrote the one after he died
05:14:47 Devastator: For full disclosure, I didn't finsih the series. I got through nine of them and gave up.
05:14:51 midnightjaguar: That actually might worth reading he’s good at marking really long books feel worth their length.
05:15:46 syv: Problem is, there's writers who are really good at making short books worth the read, as well.
05:16:15 syv: And you miiiight just be able to read all of them in the same time span as it'd take to read all the WoT books.
05:18:51 midnightjaguar: Man
dev. You make those technical Manuel’s sound rather compelling :P
05:20:12 syv: Hmm.
Dev, are there any technical manuals you remember being
a really really nice and pleasant read?
05:22:40 Devastator: and 99 bombs thanks to Kali.
05:23:35 Devastator: Yeah. And everything in the city of gold turns into money when you blow it up.
05:23:57 syv: I've no idea how common Spelunky bombs are, thougg.
05:25:02 Devastator: caveman tripped
a thwomp trap off-screen.
05:25:12 Devastator: slid right into me while I was jumping.
05:25:27 syv: There seems to be
a lot of random deaths in Spelunky.
05:26:33 Devastator: That one was technically avoidable, but it would have required more caution than I usually express.
05:29:15 syv: There seems to be
a lot of technically avoidable deaths in Spelunky.
05:29:26 Devastator: I'm not really cautious enough for it.
05:29:54 syv: Maybe it's my kind of game, then.
05:30:03 syv: You ever play I Wanna Be The Guy?
05:30:28 Devastator: Nope. Looks
a bit too harsh for me.
05:30:46 Devastator: Besides, I got my share of high-precision platformers with N.
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05:36:26 Devastator: N's also about momentum.
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05:44:38 Devastator: You could try some N if you want,
Mj.
05:44:43 Devastator: wouldn't mind hearing your impression of it.
06:00:38 midnightjaguar: Is it
a browser game?
06:01:31 Devastator: It's 12 years old, so it's
a flash game.
06:04:45 midnightjaguar: Alright lemme see if I can find
a mic.
06:08:14 midnightjaguar: Mic has been found
06:09:23 midnightjaguar:
Dev and
Syv it should be up
06:09:38 syv: Not watching
a stream tonight, sorry.
06:10:06 syv: I need to go to work in seven hours, and preferably finish this update within one.
06:10:21 Devastator: That's N all right.
06:10:30 Devastator: It's called that because you're
a ninja.
06:12:04 Devastator: mines aren't very friendly.
06:13:02 Devastator: hold it down longer.
06:13:08 Devastator: ninja can jump higher than you might be thinking.
06:14:58 Devastator: don't forget about walljumps.
06:24:25 Devastator: that's
a bad place.
06:27:49 Devastator: nailed something. ;-p
06:28:28 Devastator: Yeah, these aren't easy.
06:29:45 Devastator: might want to try the bottom on that last one.
06:29:57 Devastator: you have more time to go through.
06:30:45 Devastator: You still have to time it so you don't slam straight into one, though.
06:32:23 Devastator: You can walljump up quite fast, actually.
06:32:52 Devastator: With two very close walls you can jump fast enough to smash yourself on
a ceiling.
06:33:57 Devastator: Oh, you heard about it before now?
06:37:19 Devastator: use that triangle at the base for
a leg up.
06:37:34 Devastator: run onto it and then jump.
06:38:02 Devastator: Yeah, the base of the lower-right wall.
06:38:12 Devastator: if you jump and hold after you hit that, you go
a lot higher.
06:38:33 Devastator: you can also hit said triangle and not splatter.
06:48:13 Devastator: did you hit the gate?
06:48:49 syv: God damn it. I rolled for Aleksandra's dream, got
a 1 on RTD.
06:49:07 syv: But this is exactly what I'd write if I got no direction.
06:53:30 Devastator: It agrees with you.
06:53:58 Devastator: That's what those enemies are called.
06:54:33 Devastator: for the record, if you hit the door and then would smash into the floor, it counts as
a win.
06:55:22 Devastator: you do have to not be dead at the moment you reach the door, though.
06:56:55 Devastator: Try to land on the left wall of the holes for two or three holes.
06:56:58 Devastator: then try the direct shot.
06:58:12 Devastator: If you do manage to slide down the right wall that's safe too, just harder.
06:59:05 Devastator: you had it! Just gotta start stopping yourself
a bit sooner.
07:01:20 syv: Done, sheets last thing now.
07:01:22 Devastator: Yeah, you think they can't get harder, and then they do.
07:07:36 Devastator: You want to do the big jump all the way to the right.
07:07:45 Devastator: it gives you more of
a lead over the missile.
07:08:12 Devastator: You can also walljump off the sides of the bouncy boxes.
07:09:36 Devastator: you want to hit walljump while you still have lots of up momentum.
07:09:44 Devastator: that gives you more up momentum.
07:10:04 Devastator: any unexpected disasters,
syv?
07:10:34 Devastator: hit that walljump button earlier. You don't need to hit left into the wall.
07:10:40 Devastator: Just hit jump when you're next to the wall.
07:11:24 syv: Aside from Aleksandra's dream, no.
07:11:53 syv: I'm going to eat some soup because I'm shivering, and then leave.
07:11:57 Devastator: This one is just a bit of
a pain.
07:12:58 Devastator: you can jump straight over the upper row, too.
07:13:00 Devastator: at least some of them.
07:13:11 Devastator: don't need
a walljump.
07:14:53 Devastator: Thank you for playing.
07:15:31 midnightjaguar: Hard but not impossible and simple one you get the hang of it
07:15:54 Devastator: You also have more than one level set to choose from.
07:15:57 Devastator: Thanks for playing it.
07:19:38 Devastator: I am going to get some food.
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07:43:12 Devastator: Very much like
a 1.
13:22:27 Devastator: Sullla is doing
a MoO1 playthrough RIGHT NOW on twitch, and I should have checked his site.
13:23:59 Devastator: It's just the old video.
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13:38:00 syv: Scattered clouds above
a flimsy ceiling.
13:38:29 Devastator: Thanks for the update.
13:40:56 Devastator: I do think you put
a bit too much of yourself into them, though. You could put half as much work into them and the quality would still be excellent.
13:41:49 syv: I have very little comprehension or control of how I write, though, which makes it very hard to put just half as much in.
13:42:24 Devastator: The All Night Laundry guy uses
a clock.
13:42:31 Devastator: the drawing is done when the clock buzzes.
13:42:34 syv: Maybe I should try making
a second game to put half of myself into, so that I can update *this one* more often. That makes sense. :P
13:42:51 syv: All Night Laundry? Never heard of it.
13:42:57 Devastator: Like this war declaration.
13:43:10 Devastator: It's not that great, but someone had an idea of making an illustrated comic that updated every single day.
13:44:22 syv: Did Shaka declare war on Tokugawa?
13:46:47 Devastator: You okay with Alida just chatterboxing while high on cake?
13:48:10 syv: It's starting to wear off of her
a bit, but she's still more affected than not.
13:48:21 Devastator: Figured she'd be
a bit buzzed while high on cake and high on Berzerker.
13:49:03 Devastator: I'll get birdgame updated sometime today.
13:49:10 Devastator: Oh, you're going to do pretty well with your rewards.
13:49:20 syv: ...That reminds me. I have to finish the cat/mouse setting.
13:49:28 syv: Deadline is still New Years?
13:50:12 syv: Does it have to be *complete*, or is it okay if only the necessary stuff is finished?
13:50:28 syv: I'd hope for the former but will likely only complete the latter. :\
13:50:35 Devastator: More complete is better.
13:53:36 Devastator: Also, it really isn't out of character for your bird to ask for power. You would have been briefed and instructed to come back with something.
13:54:09 Devastator: Yeah. Like the other guys in the original game, you would have been told to recover items/power/blessing, etc, in order to help everyone.
13:55:28 syv: Well, that makes me feel
a little better there.
13:55:45 syv: Knew I should've reread the relevant birdgame bit.
13:57:43 Devastator: Anyway, you want your powers? I'm afraid they're all passives.
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16:08:56 ER: you might think I did that on purpose but I'm actually just really bad at typing
16:09:40 Devastator: did win in Spelunky. Missed the City of Gold due to an unlucky rock propelled by
a red frog, and decided to go for an ordinary win because
syv was watching.
16:10:53 syv: Back home in the mountains yet?
16:11:17 Devastator: Big mountains or small mountains?
16:11:19 ER: was occupied yesterday because it's my dad's nirthday.
16:12:02 ER: the mountains are small, but definately are mountains and not hills. :P
16:12:22 ER: very old mountains, so they're eroded.
16:14:24 Devastator: Young mountains are cooler.
16:14:34 Devastator: and these guys have glaciers on them.
16:14:38 Devastator: well, most of them.
16:15:07 syv: You people live in strange places.
16:15:21 syv: Everything down here is flat and heavily wooded.
16:15:29 Devastator: Lots of woods around here.
16:15:37 Devastator: Yeah, glaciers are cool.
16:15:56 ER: that's what it was like down where I was two days ago,
syv.
16:16:32 syv: Was it swampy and wet, too?
16:17:45 syv: 've been to Georgia several times, it has lots of little mountains
16:18:35 syv: I normally go to North Georgia.
16:19:17 ER: I've been to Atlanta and I think it's
a little less boring? Hard to tell in urban areas because the natural terrain is modified and hidden.
16:19:34 syv: Yeah, southeastish Georgia.
16:20:43 syv: Only
a few hours north of me, apparently. Prolly pretty close in terms of environment.
16:21:28 ER: fairly similar to New Orleans, which I've also been to
a few times.
16:35:59 ER: ...I like how Asha is way more badass from other people's perspectives than from her own.
16:37:03 syv: She's very self-doubting and insecure, yeah?
16:39:15 ER: I guess that's what we hired you for~
16:41:57 ER: I dunno. This is really high-quality entertainment so there's no way that we're not paying you for it, right?
16:45:42 syv: Go try that attack on titan game and stream it for me.
16:46:15 ER: wasn't there
a link to download it? Rather not play in the browser
16:52:03 ER: In reaction to having a body instakilled by
a bullet. :P
16:53:07 syv: ...I kinda really want someone to examine her face, but I'm also kinda worried because it's not very normal to lovingly detail how a bullet has destroyed
a teenage girl's skull.
16:53:36 ER: you do it out of love, of course
16:55:28 ER: ...tell me if I need to downscale it or something
16:56:07 syv: Looks fine. Assuming you're just leaving the entry screen open and not doing anyth--oh.
16:56:43 syv: You wanna play in TPS btw.
16:57:13 syv: Yeah. Three view modes, TPS is the only good one.
16:59:24 syv: Third Person... uhh.. Screen?
16:59:32 syv: Chinese developer. *shrug*
16:59:42 Devastator: I.. don't think Alida will turn her body over. Maybe change out the soaked gear for bloody gear, but not going to turn the face over.
16:59:50 Devastator: and then probably let that body fade away.
17:00:07 ER: in this you're just shooting grapples, but portal is
a game that's in FPS perspective
17:00:08 syv: If you hold shift while in the air, you're propelled by gas.
17:00:22 syv: Yeah. And you can shoot guns, so...
17:01:28 syv: I only ever see noobs using the double grapple.
17:01:50 syv: Don't release the double grapple, and it'll pull you to
a stop in front of the warp.
17:06:59 syv: I think you got your first kill faster than I did.
17:08:34 syv: He's doing pretty great, actually.
17:08:39 Devastator: I'll be out and about tomorrow, so this is my last full day off.
17:11:31 syv:
ER, there's two hidden mechanics that the game doesn't tell you about. Gas bursts, which is basically a midair dodge that consumes ~4% of your gas, and I thiiink is by default done by double tapping
a direction key.
17:12:02 syv: And reeling, which by default uses the scroll wheel. It extends or retracts attached grapples, to alter your orbit.
17:12:43 syv: The default binds suck in both cases, but everything is rebindable with the mod. I put gas burst on the same key as dodge, since you can only use one or the other, and they perform the same function.
17:12:50 ER: is it also hiding a way to pick
a new level without closing the program? >:|
17:14:42 syv: Damn it, I reset my bindings...
17:15:00 Devastator: stabbing the mouth seems hazardous.
17:15:25 ER: it's mostly an exercise in defiance :V
17:15:40 ER: I assume that's right click drag
17:17:28 Devastator: don't rebind in that menu.
17:17:37 Devastator: When in game, pause, and use the blue menu.
17:17:41 syv: It actually lets you change everything
17:20:45 Devastator: Where are the gardens?
17:21:38 syv: For some reason your version has
a different pavement texture than mine.
17:25:53 Devastator: That is
a high wall.
17:27:09 Devastator: Doesn't seem to be working.
17:27:29 syv: An even bigger titan showed up.
17:28:53 ER: who put "reload level" right next to "reload level"?
17:29:20 syv: Another bit of advice: Put jump/gas on right click.
17:29:40 syv: You want to hold it down
A LOT, and stretching your pinky for it cramps.
17:29:49 syv: I put special on middle click/
17:31:38 syv: I like this background music! What is it?
17:33:29 syv: Mikasa's special is great against these guys.
17:33:51 Devastator: dang, damage but no kill.
17:34:06 Devastator: did your swords run out of gas?
17:34:36 syv: He punched you with his shoulder.
17:35:34 syv: There's no texture for damaged blades, but they pop off when they run out of HP, and you have to draw
a new pair. I presume the fragility is why they're designed like razor blades.
17:35:55 Devastator: How many do you carry?
17:36:22 syv: And they're used in pairs.
17:37:08 syv: If you want, I could put up
a server with respawns so that you don't lose progress on death,
ER.
17:41:30 syv: It's weird how effective hiding in
a titan's crotch it.
17:43:49 Devastator: Really, this seems like it'd be much easier in pairs.
17:47:12 Devastator: well, that guy's energetic.
17:49:16 Devastator: stab them eyes already.
17:50:35 syv: Oh, some of these seem to be spoilers for the anime.
17:51:09 syv: ...And, uh, US servers largely don't work.
17:51:31 syv: There's
a sustained DDoS on the US master server, which makes them virtually never appear.
17:52:09 Devastator: Any particular reason for it?
17:52:31 syv: Someone decided they hated the guy who made the game.
17:56:43 syv: Punks are elite and kill everyone easily.
17:58:52 Devastator: do the bodies disappear in the anime?
18:03:44 ER: how do you customize the custom characters?
18:04:28 syv: Go back to the entry menu, there's an option at the top for it.
18:09:00 Devastator: Saitama wouldn't need swords.
18:09:15 syv: The mod allows a lot more customization, but you have to upload
a bunch of stuff to imgur. Or use links someone else made.
18:09:55 Devastator: The sliders are RGB, if you didn't notice.
18:10:36 syv: Oh. SPD is *ground* speed, and dodge distance. GAS is how much gas you have before needing
a refill, but gas bursts are percentage based. BLA is blade durability, and ACL is speed boost from gas.
18:11:17 syv: You can add or subtract up to 25 to/from each, but it must balance out to 400.
18:11:32 syv: I pretty much always do 125 spd/acl, because tryhard.
18:12:49 Devastator: Those are just like big razors.
18:14:55 Devastator: oh, multiple slots.
18:19:46 ER: oh yeah, so you could make saitama
18:19:57 ER: just women aren't allowed to be bald!
18:22:05 syv: Actually, you could use
a custom script the make the swords and gear invisible.
18:22:15 syv: He'd still need to reload his fists, but hey.
18:22:49 ER: and you'd have to make sure to hit the weak spot every time :P
18:23:00 Devastator: reloading fists are just fine.
18:23:05 ER: or maybe hack it so that you kill where ever you hit
18:23:07 syv: Uh. What was the name/pass?
18:23:16 syv: There are bad hacks for this game.
18:23:37 syv: Every community I've seen *really* hates them. Really really bad.
18:23:57 Devastator: yet they keep coming..
18:41:39 Devastator: Should play something from PM3.
18:42:10 syv: We never did do
a co-op of the ultra hard mod :P
18:42:15 ER: I assume you mean recreate one of those characters in this
18:42:29 ER: I like GS, would be willing to play again
18:42:32 syv: I kinda did? Pink hair, pigtails, happy?
18:42:55 syv: ...I vaugely want to mod it more before I rope people into playing it again.
18:43:48 ER: I never got
a youtube playlist for it that I found satisfying.
18:44:15 syv: Yeah, it has
a lot of hit-or-miss songs.
18:50:06 syv: Special attack between his shoulder blades after he does an attack.
18:51:05 syv: From the front, hooking on the side of the head and the shoulder, while modulating gas and holding the direction *away* from the titan, can get you on the nape pretty well.
18:51:59 syv: Now do that 14 more times! :P
18:52:49 ER: a kd ratio of 1:1 is
a victory for mankind!
18:53:00 ER: or at least, better than expected!
18:53:41 syv: Starting off, the easiest and most reliable kill method is to attack the eyes, then immediately land behind and wait for them to do the slam. Then hook on their upper back, gas forward, and special once you're close enough.
18:54:03 syv: The placement differs by height, but is relatively easy to learn.
18:57:53 syv: If you're too high, aim low with the special to adjust your trajectory.
18:58:53 syv: The aberrants are easiest to deal with by waiting for them to start their belly flop, then bursting to
a side, landing, then spinning into the *side* of their neck.
18:59:44 syv: Huh. Both of phrased it like that. Weird.
19:01:16 syv: The little ones can be knocked over by slashing their ankles.
19:01:26 ER: that one was an accident :P
19:01:35 syv: Then you can just aim
a special at their shoulder blades while standing, and it'll send you right into the nape.
19:01:52 syv: Outside The Walls is interesting.
19:16:00 parisbre56[Away] has joined #einsteinianroulette
19:16:00 Topic for #einsteinianroulette: Intergalactic Day of Mourning for 2016 (2016-2016)
19:16:00 Topic set by Remalle!Variety@i2246816zi629tu21.vc.shawcable.net [Tuesday 03 January 2017, 06:26:56]
19:38:49 Devastator: Brings new meaning to the phrase 'caught with your pants down.
19:48:11 Devastator: I'm still wondering how you'd end up with your pants up while doing that.
19:58:59 Devastator: microsoft installer?
20:00:59 Devastator: Installing some utility?
20:01:42 ER: the installer for the epic games thingy is
a .msi for some reason
20:02:45 ER: "install path cannot me more than 32 characters long. please select
a shorter install location."
20:02:48 Devastator: Nothing wrong with that.
20:02:59 Devastator: Okay, that's slightly more unusual.
20:03:22 ER: who the fuck programmed this
20:04:22 Devastator: There are some drawbacks to backwards compatability.
20:05:30 ER: for gaming, you almost certainly don't need to be backward compatable past windows XP
20:05:41 ER: did XP have
a limitation for that?
20:06:17 Devastator: For .msi length? Almost certainly.
20:06:41 Devastator: That one would, reading this, run back to 2000.
20:07:27 Devastator: It's because .msi files need to be uniquely, and specifically, identified.
20:25:49 Radio_Controlled has joined #einsteinianroulette
20:26:24 Radio_Controlled: Good evening and
a merry late Christmas guys and gals.
20:27:04 ER: happy slightly-less late boxing day to you, sir.
20:28:56 Radio_Controlled: Boxing day is such a weird term for
a holiday.
20:29:26 Devastator: I have no idea why that name is used.
20:29:52 Radio_Controlled: Makes me think it's the day of the boxing world championship finals or something.
20:30:00 Radio_Controlled: Or maybe
a less lethal Purge day?
20:30:07 Devastator: So what brings you here?
20:30:33 Radio_Controlled: Just checking in while doing some other stuff.
20:30:48 Radio_Controlled: Figured why not, it's been
a while.
20:31:15 Radio_Controlled: Well, I was gonna respond to Saeko now actually.
20:32:48 Radio_Controlled: Speaking of, you've been mentioning the idea of fighting us
a lot lately. Are you planning some dastardly betrayal in our near future perhaps?
20:34:00 Devastator: Nah, not particularly. I think you managed to fullfill the goal of not arriving while covered in blood.
20:34:39 syv: Darn invisible blooded monsters, you can never be sure.
20:35:14 Radio_Controlled: Well yeah, we wanted to cover ourselves in the entrails and blood of the local townsfolk.
20:35:22 Devastator: It would have been fully possible.
20:35:58 Radio_Controlled: Strolling in pre-blooded would just be
a horrible faux pas.
20:36:35 Devastator: So what's the response?
20:36:41 Radio_Controlled: Nice to see that book action payed of, it's
a solid lead.
20:36:51 Radio_Controlled: Interested, depending on the price.
20:37:21 Devastator: Interested in what, specifically?
20:37:37 Radio_Controlled: Stat upgrades.
20:38:37 Devastator: need moar details.. ;-p
20:39:09 Radio_Controlled: End to d8, then spd to d8, then str to d8 if possible.
20:40:19 Radio_Controlled: Gonna bring up the jade tablets this turn, by the way.
20:40:32 Devastator: That's 2 d12 casts and a d6 and a d12 cast. I think Saeko will be getting
a little nervous when it comes to that final cast, and will probably double the mana price for it.
20:40:46 Radio_Controlled: As well as the teleporter map, though that might not be usable underwater, dunno.
20:40:48 Devastator: A little big on the "I'm making someone
a monster" thing.
20:42:46 Radio_Controlled: What, you don't trust us?
20:42:54 syv: But that's fine as long as she gets paid more~
20:42:55 Radio_Controlled: But we're so adorably innocent!
20:43:20 Radio_Controlled: I mean, sure, that one guy keeps spearing people straight in the mouth, but just don't think about that too much.
20:43:52 Devastator: Anyway, from the prices I've quoted, that's 800 gold and 34 mana, plus failures, for the first two d12 spells.
20:44:32 syv: And what reason does Saeko have to believe that they won't just murder her and take that back after she turns them into monsters?
20:44:48 Radio_Controlled: That's
a lotta mana, wowzers. I assume that includes the spell mana costs?
20:45:01 syv: 34 mana plus failures is
a TON of magic, especially disposable.
20:45:03 Radio_Controlled: How will we take that mana back exactly?
20:45:22 syv: Does she have any reason to think you *can't*?
20:45:27 Radio_Controlled: Neither of us is
a channeler though?
20:45:29 Devastator: I'll take that will roll to defend against it, personally.
20:45:38 syv: Does she trust that though?
20:45:52 Devastator: Got two guards with me, and there are things that can be done.
20:45:55 Radio_Controlled: Well, first
a spd roll to see who acts first, presumably.
20:46:01 syv: If I were in her position here, serious alarm bells would be going on.
20:46:15 Devastator: Yeah. That said, Saeko really needs the mana.
20:46:18 ER: You don't get a will roll to resist channeler drain. Nobody has ever gotten
a roll to resist that, and it's not in the rules.
20:46:31 Radio_Controlled: Why,
syv? She is the one that offered the magical upgrade.
20:47:14 Devastator: I'd probably go with the mind control attempt, then, if it goes for combat.
20:47:16 Radio_Controlled: From her position, all that happened is two blokes showed up offering to help her with her bugman problem.
20:47:48 ER: two blokes who now appear to have quite
a lot of gold and mana
20:48:22 syv: And who likely don't seem all that harmless.
20:48:41 syv: And who clearly want to be better at killing.
20:49:04 syv: And who don't mind spending
a massive amount of magic and gold for relatively minor killing upgrades.
20:49:10 Radio_Controlled: Again, based on what? The fact that they responded to the call?
20:49:38 syv: Seriously, isn't 800 gold enough to live comfortably off of for years, if not decades?
20:50:25 Radio_Controlled: You seem to be assuming we'll just be going along with the first offer here? Secondly, we are responding to
a call to deal with man-hunting bugmen.
20:50:27 syv: Based on the sheer amount they're willing to part with for relatively minor boons, and the clear fact that they're powerful and probably stand
a good chance of victory if they attack her, guards or no.
20:51:21 Devastator:
syv, I offered the services.
20:51:21 Radio_Controlled: Us saying "why thank you miss,
a little bit of an edge would indeed be nice against those monsters that almost abducted you" seems terribly fishy to you?
20:51:56 Devastator: The gold price is
a bit negotiable, though. I don't need that much gold. I will quite likely, need the mana as well.
20:52:30 ER: just the fact that you HAVE that much gold and mana is fishy, how you act with it is irrelevant.
20:52:51 Radio_Controlled: I mean, if you took out an add to help get rid of some wild bore on your land,
a bloke shows up and accepts your offer to sell him your rifle cause it's better than what he has, you'd suddenly go "Oh man that guy sounds fishy".
20:53:02 syv: And, again, the fact that you could kill her, abd that would make the loss of the gold elementary.
20:53:08 syv has quit [Quit: Definitely a psyv.]
20:53:19 Radio_Controlled: Like, why even offer it if you're gonna be super suspicious if they are interested?
20:53:44 Devastator: Umm..
RC, I'm saying that I'm willing to do it.
20:54:07 Radio_Controlled: Yeah, was talking to
syv.
20:54:30 Radio_Controlled: Why was arguing from
a position of "If I were saeko then I would X".
20:55:28 Devastator: Also, Saeko would offer to charge you one-quarter the gold price of everything if you give her thirty mana so she can upgrade End to +2 before doing this. Should save on failures.. and the risk of critfails.
20:57:27 Radio_Controlled: 600 gold = 24 mana. Hmm.
20:57:46 Radio_Controlled: We'll need to save some mana for the actual quest as well.
20:58:16 Radio_Controlled: Currently have 54 mana in reserve.
20:59:36 Devastator: eh, the lower risk of failures will save you some as well.
21:00:08 Radio_Controlled: And we can offer her to let her search for words, and perhaps loan her the teleporter map to help with evacuating people.
21:00:25 Devastator: I suppose I'll cut off five mana from the base cost if you give the 30 for +2 end.
21:00:26 Radio_Controlled: True, but 30 mana up front is
a large sm to part with, I'm sure you understand.
21:00:55 Devastator: so 200 gold and 29+failures instead of 800 gold and 34+failures.
21:01:38 Radio_Controlled: Plus 30 up front.
21:03:07 Radio_Controlled: Still
a ton of mana, more than we actually have.
21:04:02 Devastator: Well.. yeah. You're asking for several big spells.
21:04:46 Radio_Controlled: True, but I'm trying not to completely break the bank here just before we'll need mana for the actual quest.
21:05:08 Devastator: Didn't you get paid like 2000?
21:05:33 Radio_Controlled:
A quest that, I must add, pays like 35 gold in return to track down man hunting giant bugmen..
21:06:06 Devastator: I didn't have tons to pay you.
21:07:05 Radio_Controlled: Perhaps we could forego quest rewards (aka pretend the quest reward is rolled into the upgrade payment) and throw in the jade tablet search and in return lower the mana payment.
21:07:21 Devastator: I need the mana to cast the spells, though.
21:07:25 Devastator: That's
a non-starter.
21:07:37 Radio_Controlled: Don't you have like 11 left still?
21:08:09 Devastator: Don't you have like 2000 that you could turn into mana?
21:08:36 Radio_Controlled: Yep, but we'll also need that money for other endeavours.
21:10:45 Devastator: I'll be getting like 10 mana from this deal.
21:11:06 Devastator: That's not
a lot of profit.
21:11:22 Radio_Controlled: And while a d6=>d8 is worth more than a single +1 to me, if the cost of the former becomes too astronomical it might not be worthwhile. Currently we're looking at
a total cost of 67 mana!
21:11:28 Radio_Controlled: And
a +2 to end.
21:11:50 Radio_Controlled: Don't forget about that, seeing as how it costs 30 mana and all that.
21:11:59 Devastator: Yeah. And five mana for that, but it'll save you mana on failures.
21:12:21 Devastator: If I'm sitting on zero mana, I've got screwed.
21:12:28 Devastator: however much I've gained.
21:12:45 Radio_Controlled: It might, bad rolls could still push up the costs up to potential infinity!
21:13:44 Radio_Controlled: Maybe it'll be easier if we say 'mana costs of spells&failures +
a certain amount on top'?
21:14:36 Devastator: That's not much different than what I'm charging, but sure.
21:14:44 Radio_Controlled: That way you'll be sure you won't end up with no mana, and that +2 will still be there.
21:16:52 Devastator: 800 + 17 + failures plain.
21:17:20 Devastator: Nah, use both so less math.
21:17:27 Devastator: 800 + 34 + failures.
21:17:41 Devastator: or 200 + 29 + failures with the +2 end.
21:18:15 Devastator: You want the +2 end on it, so say.. 200 + spells and failures + 33?
21:19:26 Devastator: 200 + spells and failures + 9?
21:20:59 Devastator: Ugh, that's not
a lot. Need that +2 to make it worth it.
21:24:16 Devastator: That should be
a bit cheaper.
21:24:32 Radio_Controlled: What about this: you bring end and spd from d6 to d8. In return we: do the bugman quest (no reward needed, the 35 gold bounty was pitiful anyway) + spells&failures + you can look through the jade tablets and keep any word you find +30 mana for upgrade + 4 mana OR 100 gold.
21:25:29 Devastator: I need mana. doing it for nothing isn't an option.
21:25:43 Devastator: I'd rather ditch the +2 than do it for nothing.
21:25:46 Radio_Controlled: It seems like
a fair deal to me, you still come out ahead massively without actually giving up anything.
21:26:11 Radio_Controlled: After all, all the costs are accounted for so doing the spell costs you nothing but
a few turns.
21:26:16 ER: you're not talking about anything interesting so I'm gonna peace. later
21:27:13 Radio_Controlled: We can forego that 30 mana up front and instead put a part of it into the mana payout, though only
a bit of it seeing as not having that +2 increases the risk for us again.
21:28:23 Devastator: When you say giving up anything, saeko will take off her gloves and show you her burned forearms.
21:28:39 Devastator: "This is what happens when I cast powerful spells on people. I get hurt, and sometimes badly wounded."
21:29:43 Devastator: If the price is too much, just do one spell at
a time, or break it into pieces. But I need mana to do my work.
21:30:00 Radio_Controlled: Only when you roll badly though. Either way, I can't really go up from this offer, otherwise the costs become just too high. I mean, for my offer we're still looking at
a mana cost of around 50.
21:30:17 Radio_Controlled: For the near equivalent of two +1's that's pretty high.
21:31:21 Devastator: So get less done, then, and I'll split the one End spell into two d8s.
21:31:54 Devastator: that's the spells +10 + 100 gold.
21:33:06 Radio_Controlled: And the quest and the tablets?
21:33:48 Devastator: Those would be seperate deals. You take the quest and get paid, and get some extra from back. Tablets were the ordinary deal, although in all liklihood, if there are words on them I'll find one worth buying.
21:34:14 Devastator: If 50 mana is too much, and it is
a lot, the easiest solution is to buy less magic.
21:34:16 Radio_Controlled: Again, that 35 gold is pitiful for
a quest with this kind of risk, not to mention we'll probably need to spend mana in it as well in the form of spells.
21:34:56 Devastator: I don't have thousands of gold.
21:35:17 Devastator: If you don't want to do the quest, don't do the quest.
21:35:26 Radio_Controlled: Indeed, so you can pay in advance by lowering the asking price for the spells.
21:35:57 Devastator: To less than my cost?
21:36:18 Devastator: That's not gonna work. I've got a patient, and, quite honestly,
a more important quest.
21:36:28 Devastator: How about some other buffs then?
21:36:39 Radio_Controlled: Again, in the deal any costs for you (for spells or fixing failures) are accounted for, you stand no chance of losing out here.
21:36:42 Devastator: Something that's
a more reasonable price.
21:37:03 Devastator: Well, your offer seems to be 'my costs, and nothing.'
21:37:14 Radio_Controlled: You are ignoring the 30 mana for that +2?
21:37:29 Devastator: I'd rather not have that +2 if it leaves me with no spare mana.
21:37:31 Radio_Controlled: Even though you'll need that +2 to help power up the birb?
21:37:51 Radio_Controlled: How will it leave you with no spare mana, if any actual mana costs are already accounted for?
21:38:09 Devastator: Because I want to cast two scrying spells at d6 each, and I have
a current patient.
21:38:31 Radio_Controlled: Again, you still come out ahead. Perhaps not as much as you had hoped for, but even if the spells go really bad there's no chance of you ending up in the red on this deal.
21:38:45 Radio_Controlled: I'm sure those spells could wait
a turn or two, I mean really now.
21:40:17 Devastator: Hmm, so you're offering me any word from the tablets?
21:40:23 Devastator: I think I'll take that, then.
21:40:34 Radio_Controlled: As part of the spell deal, sure.
21:40:36 Devastator: If they have words on them.
21:41:14 Devastator: and I can have two.
21:41:45 Radio_Controlled: You'd be allowed to keep the tablets themselves, meaning you can learn and unlearn them as needed.
21:41:48 Devastator: words are good, but my choice of four mana or 100 gold..
21:43:30 Devastator: half and half okay?
21:43:41 Radio_Controlled: How do you mean?
21:43:56 Devastator: 50 gold should pay most of my expenses, and 2 extra mana will give me just
a little bit of breathing room for this patient.
21:45:21 Radio_Controlled: What about this: End and spd up to d8. In return, you can look through the jade tablets and keep any word you find + spells&failure costs + 10 mana (can convert 1 mana to 25 gold as needed, so eg 6 mana and 100 gold).
21:45:57 Devastator: That should be good. I'll probably take 6 and 100.
21:46:51 Devastator: Oh, that's not including the 30 mana for the +2 end?
21:48:35 Devastator: Is that an offer to take any one word?
21:49:50 Radio_Controlled: You can keep any tablet that has
a word on it that your type of mage can read, up to say, 5 tablets max. So if you can identify 4 tablets with Invoker words on them, you can keep all 4.
21:51:53 Devastator: If they have at least 3 invoker words on them (my cap), I'll take that, with
a 6 mana 100 gold split.
21:52:24 Devastator: Every word short is an extra six mana or 150 gold.
21:52:48 Devastator: I won't take more than my cap.
21:53:45 Radio_Controlled: How about 2 extra mana or 50 gold for every word short?
21:54:18 Radio_Controlled: "Wizard needs mana badly" seems to be the sentiment of the day :p
21:54:46 Devastator: and you're sitting on what, 125 mana?
21:55:11 Radio_Controlled: Dude, we have /plans/ for that mana, you wouldn't believe.
21:55:26 Radio_Controlled: Anyways, is it
a deal?
21:55:38 Devastator: Eh, split the difference to 4 and 100.
21:55:50 Devastator: It's probably not relevant, as I bet you have words on those.
21:57:25 Radio_Controlled: For the record, if there are enough words on those tablets to get to at least 3, but they're not that great, what then?
21:58:17 Devastator: You've got what, forty-some tablets?
21:58:51 Radio_Controlled: The other tablets have words for Ecalir on them.
21:59:00 Radio_Controlled: So those are
a no go, of course.
21:59:17 Radio_Controlled: So, in summary: End and spd up to d8. In return: spells&failure costs + 10 mana + you can look through the jade tablets and keep the tablet of any word you find (up to 3 tablets, any tablets less than 3 is payed out as 4 mana instead). You can convert 1 mana to 25 gold as needed for the payout.
21:59:24 Radio_Controlled: Is that correct?
21:59:35 Devastator: It'd be interesting to know if she can read tablets with words for other people on them.
21:59:54 Radio_Controlled: Don't think so, according to the rules.
22:00:51 Radio_Controlled: Ok then, I'll add it to my post (gonna shove the details of the deal into OOC, would be weird to talk like that IC).
22:01:36 Devastator: In all honesty, I'm not terribly happy. I was hoping to get
a bit more breathing room than that. That said, it's very low but livable.
22:02:13 Radio_Controlled: Hey, I might get some more upgrades after the quest.
22:02:47 Devastator: Yeah, but nothing creative!
22:03:02 Radio_Controlled: But for now I wanna also keep some mana in reserve to deal with the bugs. I'm sure you understand why, given how they almost kidnapped you!
22:03:36 Devastator: hey, you'd still have up to fifty even if it came out to spending sixty.
22:04:34 Radio_Controlled: Getting gear upgrades could be interesting, but most of the obvious stuff that could get upgraded we don't really need, and for the other stuff we aren't sure yet if Saeko's strengthening works for it.
22:05:17 Radio_Controlled: Like I said, we'll need that money for some things down the line, we're not quite ready yet to go sleep on top of our hoard like
a dragon.
22:05:52 Devastator: no super senses, no combination spells.
22:06:06 Devastator: You have
a dragon's hoard though.
22:06:29 Devastator: I'd bet if we paired up to cast strengthen and sharpen, you'll have a hell of
a weapon at much easier than either of us trying it alone.
22:07:21 Devastator: So what's the plans for the remaining 1800 gold?
22:07:24 Radio_Controlled: Thing is, do we really need an uber melee weapon?
22:07:40 Radio_Controlled: We have several d8 melee weapons and
a magical sword.
22:07:40 Devastator: I'm sure diamond and strengthen could do the same for armour.
22:08:10 Radio_Controlled: For armor, boosting it to d10 means ecalir can't actually wear it unless we get him
a +2 end.
22:08:26 Devastator: Yeah he can. I'm wearing d4 armour that is d6 effective.
22:09:06 Radio_Controlled: Ah, right, you could do that. Hmm, in that case we can consider that for after the bug quest.
22:10:32 Radio_Controlled: As for super senses, it could be interesting if it's permanent. But I'm still uneasy about things like super hearing without the obvious downsides being adressed.
22:10:50 Devastator: Sounds to me like you'd rather do things the brute force way instead of the smart way, because you know you can browbeat me into not taking my fair share. ;-p
22:11:07 Devastator: (3 words are pretty good.)
22:11:12 Radio_Controlled: Like, if
pw said he'll never bring it up, that's fine, but if he suddenly realizes it then we might get
a case of noise induced deafness in the middle of combat.
22:11:28 Devastator: Well, Saeko would know how ears work.
22:11:29 Radio_Controlled: Hey, I think this was
a fair deal, everyone involved comes out ahead.
22:11:44 Devastator: or you could ask for
a temp buff to try it out.
22:12:02 Devastator: I'd charge you cost +1 +10 gold for
a quick d4.
22:12:22 Radio_Controlled: Dunno, in
pw games straight stat upgrades are often
a good bet.
22:12:25 Devastator: Nah, just say cost +1.
22:12:55 Radio_Controlled: As for our plans with our hoard, there's several.
22:13:17 Radio_Controlled: Like finding that airship from the rumors section and making
a sweet flying mansion.
22:14:05 Radio_Controlled: If we ever get around to that, Saeko can come chill in our skypool if she wants to :p
22:14:08 Devastator: I prefer my flying creatures to be alive.
22:14:15 Devastator: I doubt the bird would fit. ;-p
22:15:14 Radio_Controlled: It can coast along with wings lazily swept open, I'm sure.
22:15:43 Devastator: better make sure it's an airship and not an airplane, then. ;-p
22:16:22 Radio_Controlled: Posted, wanna look it over real quick to make sure there's no discrepancies?
22:17:28 Radio_Controlled: Just edited wording
a little, fyi.
22:17:37 Devastator: Add 'In that order' to End and Speed.
22:17:51 Devastator: in case there are bad critfails or side effects.
22:18:18 Devastator: Do you want me to put on an ablative temp buff before casting the d12s?
22:18:23 Devastator: It'll add more cost, but it'll be safer.
22:18:43 Radio_Controlled: How does that work exactly?
22:19:18 Devastator: Essentially, the temp buff vanishes instead of it making you weaker.
22:19:48 Devastator: That said, I should reconfirm that with
PW.
22:19:58 Devastator: so I'll just issue normal orders now.
22:20:18 Radio_Controlled: Yeah, check with
pw first to make sure we're not throwing away mana for nothing.
22:25:05 ER has joined #einsteinianroulette
22:25:06 Devastator:
PW never got back to me about those mind-control orders, either.
22:25:19 Devastator: Annoying, I wanted to know if I could do what I was trying to do.
22:25:26 Devastator: Anyway, thanks for the discussion,
RC.
22:25:42 Radio_Controlled: The pleasure was all mine.
22:25:52 Radio_Controlled: He just didn't respond to the pm?
22:26:04 Radio_Controlled: Might be too busy or didn't notice it.
22:27:19 Radio_Controlled: I'll admit I'll feel safer taking on the bugmen while wearing better armor and being able to shoot them better if they menace at me too much.
22:30:41 Devastator: (I am feeling a bit screwed, though. But in the end, it's
a game.)
22:30:58 Devastator: (Saeko gets to scar herself horribly, for 10 mana.) ;-p
22:31:10 Radio_Controlled: You're coming out ahead with the potential to earn more in the future. Worse deals have been struck.
22:32:13 Devastator: I'm selling my body for about half the usual rate to some people who don't really need my help. And in the future, I get the opportunity to do the same again, for even less pay!
22:32:33 Radio_Controlled: You're
a glass half empty person, aren't ya? :p
22:33:31 Devastator: I was hoping for more than the baseline pay of five mana
a spell when dealing with spells that are strong enough to deal physical wounds, yes.
22:33:46 Radio_Controlled: And hey, Saeko gets to bask in the hypermasculine glory that is Ecalir, plenty of women would sell their body just for that!
22:33:54 Devastator: Words count, but next time you won't have them.
22:34:16 Devastator: Bah, all Eclair needs is
a good solid debuff.
22:34:41 Devastator: and heck, the usual rate is about five mana and money.
22:34:47 Radio_Controlled: Are you coming on to him? ~
22:35:27 Devastator: That might be a fun encounter, if literal magic gets involved. I'm sure he wouldn't mind a reverse grow spell in
a few places. ;-p
22:35:37 Radio_Controlled: Hey now, you're forgetting the part where
a bunch of chumps are gonna go clean up the mess you left behind for chump change!
22:35:51 Devastator: I didn't have thousands of gold to spend on that.
22:35:52 Radio_Controlled: We might end up as bug food!
22:35:55 Devastator: And apparently neither do you.
22:37:07 Radio_Controlled: It's not like we're dangling our bags of money in front of Saeko here.
22:37:14 Radio_Controlled: I mean, why would we?
22:37:33 Devastator: You did just admit you have
a super-rare magical artifact.
22:37:55 Devastator: And asked for fifty mana worth of spells.
22:38:03 Radio_Controlled: In an attempt to help you, yes. Speaking off, interested in that?
22:38:30 Radio_Controlled: Not sure how it'd work underwater, but I think it ought to?
22:38:42 Devastator: I'd check it to see if it shows anything first.
22:38:49 Devastator: I wouldn't count on it working otherwise.
22:39:08 Devastator: and I really want to get some solid info other than 'it's down there.' I mean, teleporting yourself to the bottom of a lake is
a bad thing.
22:39:56 Radio_Controlled: I meant swimming there and teleporting out again.
22:40:03 Radio_Controlled: Not teleporting in.
22:40:08 Devastator: Ahh. Yeah, that seems likely.
22:40:16 Devastator: but I don't know how to get there in the first place, or what the conditions might be.
22:40:25 Radio_Controlled: Gets around the problem of only having
a few sets of diving gear.
22:40:27 Devastator: I'll think about that if you get back before the end of the month.
22:40:48 Radio_Controlled: Sure, though I suspect it's gonna take
a while to deal with the bugmen.
22:40:48 Devastator: (I'd still rather borrow your vacuum word for making air pills.)
22:41:47 Radio_Controlled: I don't think borrowing words is
a thing.
22:41:54 Radio_Controlled: Being
a different type of mage and all.
22:42:17 Devastator: I wouldn't borrow it. I'd borrow you to cast the spell to make the first few.
22:42:38 Devastator: I can then use strengthen and expand to make
a sufficient quantity.
22:42:41 Radio_Controlled: Ah. And what, exactly, would you want those pills to do?
22:42:59 Devastator: They'd be more like throat lozenges that produce air.
22:43:04 Devastator: so you can breathe while underwater.
22:44:04 Radio_Controlled: From vacuum? That seems like a bit of
a stretch.
22:44:48 Devastator: I'd probably have to strengthen them to make them usable.
22:44:52 Radio_Controlled: Giving you gills with viscera seems more likely.
22:45:18 Radio_Controlled: Again, just reversing the meaning of something seems like
a stretch.
22:45:26 Devastator: You can do that, yes.
22:45:38 Radio_Controlled: Might be doable but should be really hard, otherwise every word is actually two words.
22:46:37 Devastator: It's not
a might be. That I have had mentioned as usable explicitly.
22:46:50 Devastator: It's not as good as the other word, but it works.
22:46:53 Radio_Controlled: And besides, the reverse of vacuum isn't just breathable air by definition.
22:47:13 Devastator: No, but you can direct the exact meaning of the words
a lot. Cabal is generous that way.
22:47:35 Radio_Controlled: Though it's something of
a colloquial definition anyway.
22:47:49 Radio_Controlled: I could make you
a vacuum with my word!
22:47:56 Radio_Controlled: Never have
a dusty giant bird again!
22:48:07 Radio_Controlled: Just vacuum it down and presto!
22:48:50 Devastator: I'm pretty sure directing reverse vacuum to mean 'air' is possible.
22:49:57 Radio_Controlled: I could see
pw allowing it.
22:50:25 Radio_Controlled: But doing so as the effect of a pill and it working as intended sounds like it should be
a difficult spell.
22:51:11 Radio_Controlled: d8 will ain't too shabby though for summoning.
22:51:11 Devastator: Possibly. I bet he'd allow it, though.
22:51:28 Radio_Controlled: You could look into it, if you want me to try it.
22:51:35 Devastator: I don't know if it's summoning. I'd have empty lozonges made up and use an enchantment.
22:51:49 Devastator: That should make it easier.
22:53:26 Radio_Controlled: (then watch me use 'sense' to just make it seem like they do that instead)
22:54:51 Radio_Controlled: Also wow that link.
22:56:17 Devastator: I'm also sad because this means Eclair won't be getting kitty ears to go with his manly physique. ;-p
22:57:27 Radio_Controlled: Maybe later friend, maybe later.
22:57:47 Radio_Controlled: Bugs first, kawaii neko ears second.
22:59:49 Radio_Controlled: So, we know they are related to
a guy famous for his summoning that was big in the olden days.
23:00:07 Radio_Controlled: Is it him still, or perhaps
a disciple?
23:00:42 Radio_Controlled: Or maybe the summons outlived him? But then why did the kidnappings start only recently?
23:00:57 Radio_Controlled: I think 'charity work' is more appropriate here :p
23:01:15 Radio_Controlled: 35 gold. Doesn't even cover our travel expenses!
23:01:52 Devastator: Also, you moved from 30 mana for +2 endurance, and four mana, to ten mana alone.
23:02:59 Radio_Controlled: Hey, that's what you wanted.
23:03:40 Radio_Controlled: That 30 mana for +2 would have lowered the risk for me, not getting that +2 means
a higher chance you accidentally debuff me to hell and back.
23:04:00 Devastator: You coulda had that, if you offered some actual profit.
23:04:32 Radio_Controlled: And increase the costs even more? I ain't made of mana you know!
23:04:55 Radio_Controlled: Outfitting the skyblimp is gonna cost
a ton!
23:05:14 Devastator: Whatever. It's fine, but now I know that you won't pay for anything.
23:05:44 Radio_Controlled: You think getting
a jacuzi at 4 km in the air is cheap?!
23:06:41 Radio_Controlled: I think that is not
a fair analysis of this deal, but in the end you are free to think that.
23:07:15 Radio_Controlled: But if you ever find offers that have
a higher payout to turn ratio, do let me know.
23:07:33 Devastator: I got 20 mana from spending
a week collecting from the general population.
23:08:46 Radio_Controlled: And how often can you do that?
23:10:31 Radio_Controlled: And how often do two handsome devils come along to fix your messes for what amounts to a thank you and
a ham sandwich?
23:11:14 Devastator: Ahh, I was just hoping that you'd help fix one of my problems, be it lack of money or mana.
23:11:50 Radio_Controlled: What about lack of bugmen corpses? :p
23:12:50 Devastator: the prize isn't for corpses.
23:13:00 Devastator: I'd come along but I don't have the time.
23:13:45 Devastator: Bet I'm going to roll well and you get two buff spells for like 15 mana now. ;-p
23:15:55 Radio_Controlled: In which case, hey, more left for later purchases.
23:34:25 ER has joined #einsteinianroulette
23:38:23 ER: we need to tie
MJ down sometime so that we can continue watching attack on titan
23:38:31 [1]Radio_Controlled has joined #einsteinianroulette
23:39:22 [1]Radio_Controlled: Oh hey
ER is back.
23:39:26 [1]Radio_Controlled: Ready for round 2?
23:41:53 Radio_Controlled has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
23:41:53 [1]Radio_Controlled is now known as Radio_Controlled
23:46:38 Radio_Controlled: Well, guess I'm off as well then.
23:46:49 Radio_Controlled: G'night dweebs!
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