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02:16:14 syv: So you won StS on that run I'd been watching?
02:17:08 syv: You got some great cards on that run.
02:17:14 ER: it was a... somewhat flawed deck, I think. But it did enough damage to just beat everything to death even after all the useful cards got exhausted. :P
02:18:13 ER: that's the one that makes you confused forever
02:18:15 syv: Plus, disarm! And a lot of HP, so strong heals.
02:18:51 ER: in addition to confusion, it makes you draw 2 extra cards every turn.
02:19:03 syv: It really was an impressive playstyle, though. Forego defense entirely, so you can HIT THINGS EVEN MORE
02:19:05 ER: which makes fiendfire do 20 extra damage :P
02:19:37 syv: Yeah, fiendfire is phenomenal.
02:20:06 syv: Wonder if the devs realize how good removing cards from a reshuffled deck is.
02:20:17 ER: snecko eye makes things cost 1.5 on average, so it made me more able to use my perfected strikes, too.
02:20:46 ER: If I draw enough cards, I'm likely to draw at least one 0 cost perfected strike, which is like 20 free damage.
02:23:32 syv: Yeah, good artifact. Kinda luck based though.
02:23:54 syv: Adds another element on top of the possibility of simply not drawing anecessary card; it might be too expensive to use.
02:24:07 ER: you're rolling it enough that it takes it a lot to screw you over.
02:24:23 syv: Though... actually, 3 cost is only 25% chance, and it adds two draw, so that shouldn't be statistically worse.
02:24:29 ER: you're drawing 7 cards per turn, and each of those has a 25% to be free
02:24:46 ER: so it's pretty unlikely that you're not doing anything in a turn
02:26:10 ER: it does add some chance in terms of potentially making your most important cards cost too much to play, and it will give you bad turns where everything costs 2-3, but you really don't have to be too lucky to make it work.
02:26:47 ER: because, again, it's rolling that for every CARD you draw, and it makes you draw MORE cards.
02:28:30 syv: Confusion is really rather nice in StS, considering how bad confusion statuses typically are.
02:30:08 ER: with the defect, one of your most powerful cards is "metor strike", which costs 5 energy. With snecko eye, you can become so confused that you think that hitting things with meteors is a perfectly normal thing that you can so, say, three times in a turn.
02:32:06 ER: oversimplifying, ironclad is all about attack cards and exausting, silent is about skill cards and poison, and defect is about power cards and orbs.
02:32:49 syv: I suppose I haven't seen the strengths of the other two classes, but Ironclad sounds the strongest.
02:33:25 ER: The other two can get very strong too, but ironclad is my fave~
02:34:11 ER: Defect has a power called "creative AI' though. It creates a random power card and puts it in your hand at the start of every turn.
02:34:34 ER: it can make any power, including more creative AIs.
02:35:09 syv: So Ironclad is aggro, Defect is control.
02:35:33 syv: I suppose that makes Silent midrange by process of elimination.
02:35:55 ER: Defect has orb slots, which you can fill with electric, frost, dark, and plasma orbs.
02:36:57 ER: electric does damage to random enemies at the end of your turn, frost gives block, dark powers up until you evoke it for a bunch of damage, and plasma gives you energy.
02:37:17 ER: meteor strike gives you 3 plasma, btw :P
02:38:01 syv: Are there limited slots? Do you have to play cards to fill them? Are their effects significant (>2 damage/block or so)?
02:38:21 ER: when your orb slots are full and you add another orb, the orb at the front of the que gets evoked, which means it does damage/ blocks/ gives you 2 energy.
02:39:19 ER: electric does 3 damage, frost gives 2 block. You can gain Focus through various powers which increases them lineirly like strengh increases damage.
02:39:41 ER: they do a bunch more than that if you evoke them, too.
02:40:42 ER: It's not super powerful to start with, but neither is the stuff you're doing at the start with ironclad. Trust me when I say it scales.
02:40:47 syv: Sounds like it could be good, but I feel like it'd have health problems. Does it get better access to healing than Ironclad or something?
02:41:10 ER: Ironclad has pretty much the best healing.
02:41:44 ER: starting relic heals 6 at the start of the fight, you can get Reaper, which is an attack that heals you and scales with strength.
02:42:22 syv: ...Yeah. Deals damage most aggressively, flushes weak cards plus has a ton of strong ones, and heals the best.
02:42:31 ER: (deal 4 damage to all enemies, heal for how much unblocked damage you do)
02:42:50 syv: Can Defect scale into a stupid amount of frost shielding with focus or something?
02:43:27 ER: Yeah, and stupid amounts of damage with electric orbs and electrodynamics.
02:44:26 syv: You'll have to stream a defect run for me sometime.
02:45:03 ER: I did win with my first ever Defect run~
02:45:25 syv: Ohhh. After how many Ironclad runs/wins?
02:46:14 ER: you saw the first two acts of my first ironclad run :P
02:46:58 syv: Now I'm doubly sad that I missed it. ._.
02:47:54 ER: srry, should have recorded it then.
02:58:19 syv: "Ugh, this sound effect will be annoying to cut out cleanly. The music is so different on either side, I'll have to try and preserve some of the effect to bridge them... Meh, may as well see what happens when I cut out a big chunk at random." "Oh. First cut, and it sounds perfect already. Nevermind then."
02:59:50 ER: Trying something once, and finding that it actually works.
03:00:32 ER: Whatever my dump stat is, it's not Luck.
03:01:07 syv: I seem to have pretty good luck as well. I suppose most people born in first world countries do.
03:03:48 ER: Well, north carolina isn't great as far as first world countries go, but there's far worse and I'm free to move to better places.
03:28:08 ER: Foxhole updated, and it makes me want to play that game a little more.
03:28:35 ER: Apparantly it now have five-man crew main battle tanks, which sounds fun.
03:31:22 syv: I actually had fun with Foxhole. I spent like an hour hitting tank shells with a hammer, chatting with the other tank hitters, then started rushing enemy bases with four halftracks (we had six people...), with the enemies always dying or running away immediately upon being encountered. I think there were only two or three of them.
03:31:55 ER: was that the beta, or do you own it?
03:31:58 syv: I never figured out how to use most of the equipment that was thrown at me. Nobody I asked knew, either.
03:32:30 syv: Running with Rifles is better, unless you want to chat with people while doing idle actions.
03:32:56 ER: wish my mic worked, I guess. Would be more fun if I could talk while being an industrial worker. :P
03:33:22 syv: I'm pretty sure I typed, actually.
03:33:56 syv: It probably got in the way of hitting a tank with a hammer. Small loss.
03:34:49 ER: RWR seems kinda boring for me.
03:35:08 syv: ...And you're interested in Foxhole?
03:35:11 ER: I had fun with some free demo of it way back, but ehhh
03:35:25 ER: Yeah, RWR doesn't have hitting things with a hammer! :P
03:35:46 syv: Easily solved with modding.
03:35:59 ER: I like the idea of a big war with all or mostly players driving it. RWR is tiny and seems to be mostly AI.
03:36:08 syv: Well, if you can make/get a hammer voxel model. Still, pretty easy.
03:36:53 ER: Like, I wish that I played Planetside 1 while it still was a thing.
03:37:27 syv: RwR has PvP, but there tends to not be so many people, and most servers (all that have players...) keep the AI. From what I recall with Foxhole, most "wars" are more little skirmishesbecause there's less than ten people per server, unless you're part of one of the major groups.
03:38:23 ER: Well, it's nice, but it's a little bit closer to just being battlefield on a super awesome scale
03:38:36 ER: and slightly annoying monetization model
03:39:26 syv: It's also not slightly annoying, it's VERY annoying. The premium upgrades, especially for vehicles, can be just insane. And take many many many hours of grinding to buy free.
03:39:36 ER: PS1 involved some amount of having to drive logistics vehilces around. I wanna do that. :P
03:40:19 ER: Or at least, I want to be the one ambushing a logi vehicle to cripple an enemy base, or the one killing the ambushers.
03:40:24 syv: PS2 has APCs, which are extremely important. But, yeah, not logistics rigs.
03:41:54 ER: Arma seems to be mostly a walking simulator where you shoot at things. It's a good simulator but doesn't have *systems* to it.
03:42:39 syv: I haven't played much online, but Arma 2 had an offline base capture mode where logistics vehicles driven by NPCs were a core gameplay mechanic, and you could set up ambushes for them. You could also manually board your own team's logistics vehicles to ensure they got somewhere safely, I believe. I imagine there's online groups that play those modes more competitively, though I'unno if the same mode exists in 3. Or even has
03:43:28 syv: Umm. Did you miss the bit where I spent an hour in Foxhole clicking on a world object?
03:44:12 syv: And then did nothing for the rest of the play session except ride in a halftrack, which was following another halftrack?
03:44:13 ER: so far as I know, arma isn't much of a... strategy game, I guess?
03:44:46 ER: I dunno, it feels better if I know that what I'm riding was built, not spawned.
03:44:57 ER: Maybe that's what Alleg offers.
03:45:40 syv: Arma can be somewhat strategic, if you're playing a map that allows for that, but you'd have to play with a large group, against a large group, to get the full effect. If you did, it would be *extremely* strategic, but you'd also always be told what to do.
03:46:05 ER: I feel like the ideal multiplayer shooter is one where it's not super complicated or tedious to be a footsoldier, but nothing ever comes from nothing.
03:46:08 syv: Foxhole, from my experience and reading, was basically the same thing, with added grinding.
03:46:58 ER: You can make a clone with a rifle and run towards the enemy, but that rifle costed someone or something metal, and that body costed meat.
03:46:59 syv: You could play RwR MvW without using armories. But then you'd have infinite ammo, which I guess isn't quite right.
03:47:22 syv: Hmm. Every play Star Wars: Battlefront 2?
03:48:25 syv: That was a game where every single death costed a soldier, so running forward and dying had a real loss. Though your equipment was still mostly free, and there's obviously no multiplayer even if you could emulate it or something.
03:48:50 ER: ...maybe it comes partially from an irrational desire to play a game where respawning requires a radio connection to a cloning device, and that cloning device to be connected to a supply of biomass.
03:50:04 syv: The Wasteland type mods for Arma might also work... those do have infinite respawn, I believe, but most all equipment must be scavenged. Yes, stuff appears magically in the world, but it has to be gotten, so it's better than warping into your inv, I'd think.
03:50:24 syv: But yeah, you're going past the limits of my game knowledge.
03:51:17 ER: "A game where you're techologically immortal, which means if your tech fails you die for real." :P
03:51:38 ER: which doesn't even really have anything to do with multiplayer but ahhh
03:51:52 ER: I might be drifting a little bit in explaining what I want.
03:52:22 ER: planetside appeals to me partially because it's sci-fi, so that sort of thing can exist.
03:53:00 syv: ...Yeah, I think you're asking for Alleg.
03:53:27 ER: But that's all spaaaaace ships boring!
03:53:35 syv: Everything has a cost, it's highly strategic, every life and ship has value, there's a whole economy, with resources and ambushes...
03:54:13 syv: Yeah, but it failed. Because it was too complex and probably a bunch of stupid reasons that
Dev will complain about later.
03:54:51 syv: So it's unlikely you'll find another game with similar everything-costs mechanics, because tnere was one... and it failed. Even if you do, it'll prolly be dead.
03:55:06 ER: ...I also prefer games where you're in a spaceship to games where you are a spaceship, if that makes sense.
03:55:11 syv: Alleg at least has a playerbase.
03:55:36 syv: You mean ones where you can exit the thing?
03:56:06 syv: Maybe you'll like the game that isn't Star Citizen, which
Dev can probably talk your ear off about.
03:56:22 ER: That and move around inside. Or at the least the ship that you are has different parts which can fail due to damage or wear.
03:56:42 syv: Basically Eve:Online, but you can also get out and shoot people. I think.
03:57:35 ER: I guess the paint is that even if the game is about ships fighting each other, "a ship" shouldn't be the smallest working piece.
03:58:10 syv: You should try A leg. Alleg.
Dev's waifu.
03:58:42 syv: I'll even try it with you, if you give me sufficient prior warning.
04:00:01 ER: I didn't try it before because it wouldn't run on my computer for those mysterious software reasons.
04:00:25 ER: but I can certainly afford to try now
04:00:35 syv: Aaah, so that's how you defeated the
Dev nagging. Being physically incapable of complying. I should try that@
04:02:53 ER: The things that I want from "big" videogames is a long list of things that may or may not be possible or remotely fun for people who aren't me.
04:03:41 ER: Like a game about ground tactics like XCOM, except orbital mechanics are super important.
04:04:08 syv: DF might get there within four decades.
04:04:22 ER: For making sure that you have intel, or for getting to the planet in the first place, or for bypassing fights by dropping bombs on their heads.
04:06:39 ER: I guess what I want from a game of large scale isn't just something where there's you, a bunch of things like you, and a bunch of space. But something where there's things smaller than you, and things so much bigger than you can you could never really hope to meaningfully interfere with them.
04:07:28 ER: well, alleg downloads fast :V
04:08:03 syv: You probably want to wait for
Dev to be around to teach you how to play.
04:08:32 syv: It's not impenetrable, but it's certainly more of a cliff than most games.
04:09:27 ER: Guess I also like the feeling that you, the player character, is also made up of multiple moving parts.
04:10:42 ER: Like a rocket in KSP or something, you're made of parts which have different resource requirements and ways to pass stuff around. And if something breaks you'll feel it but the rest will keep going.
04:12:29 ER: That's why one of the games I would make if I could make games would be a multiplayer cell-building game.
04:12:55 syv: ...I want more games that are basically just Dark Souls with different/more enemies.
04:13:25 ER: You make an organism out of parts, give it instructions, and let it float around with the rest of the ecosystem.
04:13:30 syv: As a random thought, you might like Receiver.
04:13:45 ER: I DO like Receiver, you mean. :P
04:14:22 syv: There's a mod for it that adds a shotgun, a thompson, and I think a mosin?
04:14:23 ER: all the enemies are made of parts, and when you shoot them in different places, different stuff breaks.
04:14:46 syv: Yeah, I know. I probably know damn near everything about the game except the maps.
04:15:40 ER: Shoot a turret in the battery, everything stops. Shoot it in the camera, and it keeps turning but can't shoot you because it can't see you. Shhot it in the motor and it stops turning but can shoot you if you walk in front of it.
04:16:13 ER: And the player character has kind of similar systems, with the gun.
04:17:13 ER: The gun is an object with moving parts and different states, and the magazines are seperate objects, and the cartridges are seperate objects too.
04:17:37 ER: It's a good game, wish there was more to it.
04:19:34 ER: yeaaaaah. Wish I could make games, so that I could build these stupid and unwieldy systems that nobody wants to deal with.
04:20:03 ER: It's an attainable goal, but hey roleplaying games are way easier. >.>
04:21:40 syv: If I could make games, I'd make stuff with weird alien mechanics that aren't done by anything else. Zero-g tunnel rat PvP game where all the players drive tanks, and fly by firing the cannons. Tanks would be highly customizable.
04:22:41 ER: Yeah. I guess the desire is to build something that's different from anything else that exists, right?
04:22:59 syv: Pausable RTS where all your soldiers use custom AI logic written by the player, in addition to having their own skills, DF-level detailed wounds, psychology, and loadouts constructed by the player down to the bullet.
04:23:37 ER: If you try to make another dark souls, what you'll have at the end is a slightly worse dark soul. If you make a zero gravity tank dueling game, you'll have the only zero gravity tank dueling game in the world.
04:24:11 syv: Visual Novel-style dating sim where the goal is to murder everyone while making sure nobody falls in love with the protagonist, nor hates the, because either results in the player being discovered.
04:24:39 syv: I had another but I forgot what it was.
04:26:13 ER: You know, I have very little idea how video game AI works, but I figure it should be done better :P
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04:29:05 ER: I kinda want to see AI that exhibits signs of having goals and emotions and plans, but I dunno how hard that would really be.
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04:31:21 syv: It's not *that* hard, but having it be visible and meaningful is problematic, and most players simply don't care, so devs don't waste their time with it.
04:31:32 ER: But to me, how awesome would it be to play an FPS with human enemies, where each person has various levels of cowardance and goals which you can gauge and... I dunno, act like humans and not killing machines?
04:31:52 syv: Also, having them not be stupid frequently is very difficult.
04:32:02 ER: Even the "best" AI in games like FEAR don't act like humans, they act like killing machines that can talk to each other.
04:32:23 syv: Yeah, SWAT 4 is awesome. I'd love to play that with this group, actually.
04:33:55 ER: I figure that emotions would be a good way to communicate with the player, right? You might not be able to tell that someone is planning to murder their allies and take the loot for themselves, but you probably should be able to tell when they're utterly pissed at you.
04:35:27 ER: And it's a problem if the AI is really good at the goal of "killing the player" and the player can't really tell, but wouldn't it be easier to tell what the AI is up to if they're NOT constantly gunning to gun you down and nothing else?
04:36:13 syv: It would likely feel very random, or very contrived, depending on how much AI varied in their reactions to players. It's an FPS, yeah? The player's a guy who runs around and shoot things? If you keep the AI reasonably similar, there will only be a few different reactions to them by sane people, and those reactions will be relatively predictabkle.
04:36:13 ER: Flanking an teamwork can be put down to good luck, but what about backing out of a fight to chase their REAL objective?
04:36:44 syv: ...And if the AI is retreating and leaving, the player will simply never notice.
04:37:02 syv: Behavior is only relevant to the player if it's behavior which leads to death.
04:37:14 ER: Hmm. I don't mean that interaction to be limited to shooting. Stealth games are good for this sort of thing.
04:38:40 ER: And I'll be happy if I can notice behavior that's actually not relevant to me, because it proves that the world doesn't revolve around me.
04:39:33 ER: Treat the AI like people and treat the player like just another AI, and the player will feel like a person as well, right?
04:40:32 syv: ...Again, SWAT 4 is probably about as close as you're gonna get to that in a polished FPS. Maybe the spiritual successor that's being worked on will do better, if it isn't complete junk.
04:41:27 syv: Everything is relevant to the player in that, because it's a game about SWAT and you're not done until everyone is either dead, or handcuffed, but all AI have their own behaviors and priorities.
04:42:42 syv: You might get stuff like ARMA, where there will often be AI running around doing things that are sorta relevant, but not to you directly, and the game world mechanically treats you as just another soldier in almost every way... but then, walking sim.
04:45:03 ER: Why aren't there more "games that aren't about you" out there? :P
04:46:13 ER: I hunger to play a game where one life I just die randomly due to things outside my control! :V
04:47:15 syv: Why? Because humans are geared to think of themselves as the center of things. Most animals are, 'least the ones capable of thought.
04:47:38 ER: ...perhaps it would be for the best in a game where that's possible if you could then replay that in spectator made, so that you can figure out what the heck happened.
04:49:22 ER: I was told to storm this building, while I was in there someone messed up communication, so the allied bomber overhead blew the whole place to smithereens.
04:49:44 ER: End result is that at some point I just die.
05:00:52 ER: uhhh, guess a theme that I like is that random shit happens sometimes and you just have to deal with it. Anyway wanna watch some jarmungund?~
05:01:57 syv: I'm already up super late...
05:02:26 ER: midnight is only regular late, silly~
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08:19:06 Devastator:
SYV is the one to get you to dl alleg?
08:20:03 Devastator: Well, it's free, so there are players now.
08:21:37 Devastator: Also, there is free stuff. The basic ships your team has are free. You don't actually buy stuff as a player. The commander has all the money, and only special-purpose ships cost money.
08:22:14 ER: yeah, it doesn't seem very interesting to me in that aspect.
08:22:19 Devastator: Tech's expensive, but all the players need to be specifially concerned with is defending the expensive base constructors and keeping the economy running.
08:22:38 Devastator: Well, it's probably better that way, because it means you're on the same level as the best player in the world who has been playing it since 2001.
08:22:46 Devastator: No advantage or disadvantage.
08:23:29 Devastator: ..That's exactly how it works. There are no account-level unlocks or upgrades of any kind.
08:23:38 Devastator: Everything you have is what your team has managed to earn this game.
08:24:22 ER: something for something doesn't have anything to do with account level upgrades
08:24:58 Devastator: well, you do get stuff for bringing in money, and the economy is hugely important. It's just that when you're flying, you aren't the ones pushing the buttons, so to speak.
08:25:11 ER: hell, account level upgrades are just MORE things that you get for free, without paying in resources.
08:25:31 Devastator: You aren't winning a game with basic tech, that's for certain.
08:25:45 ER: And it's a little silly to say that I have no advantage or disadvantage against a high-level player
08:26:09 ER: they'll win for sure, because they're good at the game and I'm not
08:26:15 Devastator: There is no mechanical differences. But yeah.
08:26:28 Devastator: I do know vets who you could take in a dogfight, though.
08:26:41 Devastator: after you've had ten minutes to learn the controls.
08:27:08 ER: and if the rest of their team is also skilled, it won't take long into the game for me to be at a tech disadvantage, too.
08:28:42 Devastator: That's why you try to level out the number of new players between the teams, though.
08:29:03 Devastator: So the other team will have a similar raw new player to yourself.
08:34:50 Devastator: Also,
ER, one of the most important resources is 'players'. So everything costs something, even if it's free. You can be caught out of position, and that means you're not where you should be.
08:35:17 ER: no, you get a player for free when a player logs on
08:36:20 Devastator: That's easier to understand when you're flyign around, though.
08:36:44 ER: you're talking about oppertunity cost, of course
08:37:12 ER: but that doesn't change the fact that objects appear in the game world magically because someone logged on
08:37:35 Devastator: Well.. not bases, miners, or constructors.
08:39:56 Devastator: So how's Wizard Kingdom?
08:43:17 Devastator: Good to see you have a witch that must eat the world. Should be satisfying.
08:44:16 ER: witches witching witchishly
08:49:38 ER: apparently there aren't any mechanics for actually dying, so it might become awkward
09:00:05 Devastator: Yeah. It might be akward if an undying character is your rage-laser.
09:12:48 Devastator: Still, hanging around
PW will probably result in one of you eating the other.
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12:10:52 Devastator: “I-I am no necromancer,” she begins, before Fenna cuts her off.
12:10:53 Devastator: “You don’t need to be. He’s…look, just reconnect his skull to his body, would you?”
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13:43:02 Devastator:
PW doing a god game.
13:43:52 Devastator: Looks like the good slots have been filled.
13:44:15 ER: eh, wanted to be a demigod anyway
13:47:30 Devastator: Got orders from him in birdgame.
13:48:14 ER: Universe: under new management
13:51:34 ER: guess there's room to jump in as a minor
13:51:56 ER: but I'd still rather start at the bottom and sceme my way to ruling the universe. ;P
13:52:23 Devastator: I don't know if you can change rank.
13:52:54 ER: the rules that
PW posted earlier made it clearer, but you can accoring to these rules as well
13:53:24 ER: "The one who wagers the smallest loses, and they can be kicked out and replaced by the winner, demoted a level, or even killed if they're a demi-god vs a major god."
13:54:05 ER: So if you're a demi and challenge a minor, if you win you can kick them down to being a demi and take their spot in the pantheon.
17:54:25 ER: I expressed desire to fight the big abomination so it seems that all the gods have decided to buff me and get me to destroy the thing.
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21:49:23 Devastator: Looks like people are giving you power because you are the only one to manifest so far.
21:50:29 ER: I'm sure that they can trust me with a blood spear of pure destruction.
21:55:28 Devastator: You could even send
PW sneaky orders and take over one of the minor god slots.
21:56:19 ER: Think challenges need to be *made* publicly, so there's only so much stealth there.
21:57:22 Devastator: although maybe you could sneakily kill him, and hope you move up naturally.
21:57:36 Devastator: (don't challenge, just fight to drop him a rank.)
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