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05-08-2023 02:46:22 -!- Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
05-08-2023 02:46:22 -!- Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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05-08-2023 04:40:23 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: allo syv.
05-08-2023 04:40:38 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: allo dev.
05-08-2023 04:46:32 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I'll do Extinction in a bit.
05-08-2023 04:46:38 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: flowing water doesn't stack, it's like entangle.
05-08-2023 04:47:35 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it'll wear off after two misses.
05-08-2023 04:47:35 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Huh.
05-08-2023 04:47:46 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: I figured it was like double team.  Sad.
05-08-2023 04:48:02 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: No, there's no evasion modifiers available to players or bosses.
05-08-2023 04:48:16 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Absorbing two misses is pretty weak, unless they're guaranteed.
05-08-2023 04:48:28 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Absorbing only two attacks via misses*
05-08-2023 04:57:26 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Yeah so
05-08-2023 04:57:31 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Anyways
05-08-2023 04:59:50 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: they are guaranteed.
05-08-2023 04:59:56 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it doesn't wear off until it's absorbed two misses.
05-08-2023 05:00:04 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Ahhh
05-08-2023 05:00:07 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: That's better then
05-08-2023 05:00:24 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Way better
05-08-2023 05:00:27 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: that said, it isn't guaranteed to absorb any hits.
05-08-2023 05:00:37 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: still a roll.
05-08-2023 05:00:43 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: <.>
05-08-2023 05:00:50 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: What is guaranteed then?
05-08-2023 05:00:58 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: getting hit doesn't count as a miss.
05-08-2023 05:01:08 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it will make two misses.  Eventually.
05-08-2023 05:01:11 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Oh.  Yeah, that was expected.
05-08-2023 05:01:27 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: That's what I called pretty weak.
05-08-2023 05:01:30 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: yeah, if it was a miss chance for X attacks it'd last longer than two.
05-08-2023 05:01:32 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: like maybe four.
05-08-2023 05:01:49 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it's pretty weak unless you're dealing with big hits.
05-08-2023 05:01:54 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: If you're outnumbered in attack count by 2-to-1 it's just poor.  Trades one action for an equivalent amount of actions... in the future.  If you outnumber the enemy (so against this boss) it's better.  Lose one action, enemy loses actions in the future.  Depends on how reliable it is; if it dodges the next two hits that is good, if it's like 33% miss chance then it's blah.
05-08-2023 05:01:58 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: but that's ok, because water is pretty badass.
05-08-2023 05:02:32 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: also when you're dealing with broken monsters like this one.
05-08-2023 05:02:40 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: want the skinny?
05-08-2023 05:02:50 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Yes
05-08-2023 05:02:58 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: This fish isn't natural.  The second modifier means it has gear.
05-08-2023 05:03:02 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it's equipped with stuff.
05-08-2023 05:04:02 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: No I want the skinny on dodge probability :X
05-08-2023 05:04:45 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: 50% until the first one, 30% until the second one.
05-08-2023 05:05:00 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Ohhhhkay
05-08-2023 05:05:02 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Hmm.
05-08-2023 05:05:17 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: 50% is pretty decent.
05-08-2023 05:05:36 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I'm tempted to make the move more effective underwater, but I'm not tweaking stuff until after the battle.
05-08-2023 05:06:09 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Not tweaking the never-before-used move with mysterious mechanics until after we use it~?
05-08-2023 05:07:27 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: you have actually used it before.
05-08-2023 05:08:28 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: 50% chance of Trence being targeted.  50% chance of him dodging.  25% chance of utility per round.  Fish attacks twice, and assuming it can double hit, that's 75% * 75%, or ~44% of it doing something.  Guaranteed eventually.
05-08-2023 05:09:03 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: well, 100%.  The actual fish attack is only going for Trence because he looks like a meal.
05-08-2023 05:09:36 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Actual effect is good here though, since it's discarding 25% of our round actions (and a low value action too) for 50-100% of the fish's round actions.
05-08-2023 05:10:00 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: yeah, it's a sound move.
05-08-2023 05:10:02 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: When did we use it before?
05-08-2023 05:10:10 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: vault robbery.
05-08-2023 05:11:25 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: I just found it, hehe
05-08-2023 05:14:53 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.mqs.mj: Back then we dodged the first attack directed at us, then got hit three times by a group of four, and three times by a group of two.
05-08-2023 05:20:24 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: Yes.  Since you were trying to evade they had to roll to see if they'd get any attacks at all.
05-08-2023 05:20:34 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I just figured that would be the way.
05-08-2023 05:31:09 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: but yeah, fish has equipment.
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05-08-2023 06:18:32 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.prz.pn: Why does "holochroal" mean it has equipment?
05-08-2023 06:24:37 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: because someone wore that equipment and it's projected onto the fish monster.
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05-08-2023 07:28:31 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: still bouncing too much?
05-08-2023 07:48:18 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Sadly.
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05-08-2023 08:16:45 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: was watching some boardgamers play various boardgames.
05-08-2023 08:16:49 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: looks like some interesting games.
05-08-2023 08:17:10 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: also, "Social Deduction Games" means "Scum Wins".  Every single round of every game they've played has had that been true.
05-08-2023 08:19:31 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I mean, there's fun to be had, but.. you know what's gonna happen before you start watching.
05-08-2023 08:24:25 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Mm.  I haven't really played any of those.
05-08-2023 08:24:44 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Is that just because they're all competent boardgamers, and it's always scum's game to lose?
05-08-2023 08:25:12 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: That's generally what I expect from those.
05-08-2023 08:25:55 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: They're mixed.
05-08-2023 08:26:07 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it's really that all of them, every last time, has rules heavily favoring scum.
05-08-2023 08:27:19 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: "You have seven players, each with two cards.  You know what you have, but not what order your cards are in, they're shuffled.
05-08-2023 08:27:29 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: among those 14 cards is one Cthulu and six elder signs.
05-08-2023 08:27:56 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: You reveal one card at a time, from the investigator, who picks a player and reveals one of their two cards.
05-08-2023 08:28:10 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: The chosen player is the new investigator.
05-08-2023 08:28:30 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: For a not-scum win, all six elder signs need to be investigated and Cthulu can never be chosen."
05-08-2023 08:28:53 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: Even in a game where the scum players don't know each other, that's nigh-unwinnable.
05-08-2023 08:32:02 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Why do they only play badly designed SD games?
05-08-2023 08:32:15 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: They're all like that!
05-08-2023 08:32:27 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: Every single one is designed for nearly guaranteed scum victories.
05-08-2023 08:32:58 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Okay.  Why aren't social deduction games ever designed to be fair?
05-08-2023 08:33:14 < * Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt shrugs.
05-08-2023 08:33:47 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: "Literally everyone who does [task] is stupid"
05-08-2023 08:33:51 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: "Why?"
05-08-2023 08:34:02 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: "I've only seen cases where they were stupid."
05-08-2023 08:34:14 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: "...Okay, but why generalize to everyone?"
05-08-2023 08:34:18 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: "*shrug*"
05-08-2023 08:34:23 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Persuasive.
05-08-2023 08:35:48 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I don't know why it's like that.
05-08-2023 08:36:32 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: but you look at a couple dozen of them, and it's..
05-08-2023 08:36:42 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: "social deduction game, scum will win."
05-08-2023 08:36:44 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: and you're right.
05-08-2023 08:37:15 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: Sometimes it's because the ruleset requires perfect play for not-scum to win.
05-08-2023 08:37:26 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: other times it's just designed to screw things over.
05-08-2023 08:37:36 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: I think it's because scum gets the instant-win conditions.
05-08-2023 08:37:45 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeWjNWW5beiuxBI3q-wW3t1l4tdioadqh
05-08-2023 08:37:48 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: so it's just going to be much easier to design ones that way.
05-08-2023 08:37:57 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Dark Souls is the best social deduction game.
05-08-2023 08:38:50 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: heh
05-08-2023 08:39:34 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: that last one was particularly obvious, though.  I mean.. if a friendly has an elder sign and cthulu, that's a 50% win rate even if nobody is scum.
05-08-2023 08:40:33 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: and since there are literally 7 safe cards and 6 elder signs, well..
05-08-2023 08:40:45 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: ..you get the two paired up 6/13 rounds.
05-08-2023 08:42:00 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: People are bad at statistics.
05-08-2023 08:42:36 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it'd be much more viable if you needed to find 'all but one' marker.
05-08-2023 08:42:56 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: then someone actually needs to lie to put you in the 50-50 situation.
05-08-2023 08:43:53 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: game designers can do math well enough to figure that out, though.
05-08-2023 08:45:59 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: They did play one competitive asymmetric game that didn't involve social deduction, where three investigators had to track down Jack the Ripper, who was a fourth player.  Looked like the rules favored the investigators, but not heavily.
05-08-2023 08:46:13 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: if they screwed up a couple times they'd lose, but they have all the stuff they need to win.
05-08-2023 08:46:28 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: and that was imbalanced, but in a way that lead to really fun games.
05-08-2023 08:48:32 < Devastator!chatzilla@2001:569:fac0:upkl:srt:nhxs:ywys:uzpt: it also provided a good way to measure how close the ripper came to winning, so you could switch players and compare outcomes with each other.
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05-08-2023 08:56:08 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Dark Sus is imbalanced, but it's random who is favored.  And it's imbalanced in a way that leads to really fun games.
05-08-2023 08:58:48 < syv!GreatWyrmG@107.87.rgs.oo: Hard to compare outcomes though.  Could judge how close innocents got to the boss/how many died/how much HP they had, but due to the number of areas and random items, results aren't very comparable.
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05-08-2023 10:26:28 -!- Topic for #einsteinianroulette: MJ should read Extinction!
05-08-2023 10:26:28 -!- Topic set by syv [Thursday 29 June 2023, 06:20:36]
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